Just a few questions to help me on my review of course 3.
In Course 3 Lesson 5, “I don’t see anything there” is translated as Wela i ddim byd yno, but my understanding of “there” was yna = somewhere you can see, or point at, and yno = somewhere you cannot see or point at. If you don’t see anything there, then you can see there, so this confused me as I thought it would be yna. Dacw I think basically means “yonder”, which these days is “over there” in modern English.
Also - I’m sure these were taught but going back over dozens of lessons is tricky - I’m not sure how to form the past participle in sentences like " I wasn’t interested" or “he wasn’t invited”, etc
Finally, the notorious dialect-specific “isn’t it” - for northern - how would I form “is it” or “isn’t it” as tags - “it’s hot today isn’t it?”, or “that’s not very good, is it?” I know this has been answered before but it’s not sticking and I hear all sorts on the radio that are junking up sentences for me.
I was not aware of such a difference between yna and yno, probably too subtle for me.
Dacw is to acw as dyna is to yna, and dyma to yma
“He wasn’t invited” ~ “He did not get his inviting” - “Chafodd o ddim ei wahodd” , so the general cael + pronoun + verb pattern for the passive.
“I wasn’t interested” - I would say: “Doedd gen i ddim diddordeb”, but if you mean to convey the act of being/becoming interested, as in “Can I interest you in a cup of tea”, maybe you could say “Ches i ddim fy niddori”
Louis: “He wasn’t invited” ~ “He did not get his inviting” - “Chafodd o ddim ei wahodd” , so the general cael + pronoun + verb pattern for the passive.
I’m not sure whether it’s any help to the OP, but lesson 55 of the original BBC Catchphrase covers the passive structure used above. The instructor also explains the logic, which I found helpful.
I just listened to it for the first time yesterday and admittedly am still a bit confused myself, but I know it will work itself out.
Bontddu: In Course 3 Lesson 5, “I don’t see anything there” is translated as Wela i ddim byd yno, but my understanding of “there” was yna = somewhere you can see, or point at, and yno = somewhere you cannot see or point at.
This is the southern corse, isn’t it, Bontddu? I know I’ve used yna where the gog uses yno, but I obviously missed one…
Your undrestanding is certainly close to the truth for southern use. I say close cos I’m not entirely sure whre the divide is, but yoyr explanation makes sense. Is that something you were taught, or something that you have deduced yourself?
I think that “dacw”, “dyna” and “co” co is very southern) in speech have pretty much the same meaning. Southern “co” can also be “dyma”:
Co fe - There he is (appearing in the distance) / Here he is (walking through the door) / Here it is (in myn hand)
Co ti - the lovely Wenglish “there you are” as you give something to someone.
And yes, Louis - cafodd / cath / cas etc words are for “he wasn;t invited” etc. Also being born. It’s not unusual still to hear Ioan or Emrys say “When did you get your born?” (Pryd gest ti dy eni?)
Iestyn - “I think that “dacw”, “dyna” and “co” co is very southern…”
The use “co” as Iestyn says is definitely very southern, ‘co fe’ for example (there he is/there it is).
But ‘dacw’ and ‘dyna’ are also used ere up north. ‘dacw’ probably kept in use because of the famous Welsh nursery rhyme ‘Dacw Mam yn Dwad’ and will often be heard by the older generation. ‘dyna’ is very widely used in daily speech in these parts - ‘dyna fo’ ‘dyna chdi’ and so on.
‘acw’ mentioned above to mean ‘there’ ‘over there’ ‘yonder’ is very common in the north but often miss used. You may have heard ‘yma ag acw’ meaning ‘here and there’. What people tend to do is use it to mean both ‘here’ and ‘there’, for example you’ll often hear people say ‘dewch acw am baned’ to mean ‘come here/over here for a cuppa’ and also say ‘nawn ni ddod acw am baned’ to mean ‘we’ ll come over (there) for a cuppa’.
Iestyn ap Dafydd: And yes, Louis - cafodd / cath / cas etc words are for “he wasn;t invited” etc. Also being born. It’s not unusual still to hear Ioan or Emrys say “When did you get your born?” (Pryd gest ti dy eni?)
How would you ask that, then? At least for ‘where were you born?’, I can’t think of anything different than the boys’ structure to use (*Ble gest ti dy eni?’).
Many thanks for all your kind replies - all so helpful.
Louis - thanks for this - very helpful - I will start to listen out for this on the radio, so it should start to fill in some of the “gaps”.
Joanie - thanks for the suggestion - I gave it a listen and the examples of “I was born” & “Kennedy was killed” seemed to stick, and I think I have that now, so thanks. I love the use of the possessive pronoun in this way.
Iestyn - thanks for your detailed reply. I was referring to the northern course by the way, and I didn’t realise yno/yna was a dialect thing. I know my granddad used to say tyrd o’na to his dog, so I got “there” being “yna” (as in a place you can see) from that, and he was born in the Rhymney Valley but grew up in Meirionnydd so I suppose his dialect was formed in the north. I looked into it and that is when I started to learn about the yno/yna/dacw distinctions.
Catrin - thanks to you for your clarification of dacw/acw as well. I’m sure English used to have more terms like this (yonder, which must be linked to beyond). As usual, it seems Welsh has hung on to these old terms while they have gone in English. I do hear “dyna fo” a lot on the TV & radio, by the way.
@Bontddu: Back in the 1950s, 1960s, and maybe later, “yonder” was still in common use in the part of North West Lancs. which is now Cumbria, where my parents came from and where I often spent summer holidays. Less so now, I suspect. cf. also “yon”. I’ve never heard it in the south of England.
“Co ti - the lovely Wenglish “there you are” as you give something to someone.”
I just heard something like “ti co dros dro”, with an accompanying shrug and a grin, given as a response to ‘shwmae’, in the petrol station in Llandovery. I asked, and ‘A bit of Welsh slang’ they said. Did I hear right, do you think?
I would imagine that was “tico drosto” - an adaptation of the English “ticking over”.
Good listening! These are the kind of touches that you will only ever pick up by listening to other people, often getting it wrong first time, then suddenly haveing light-bulb “Oh, so that what they’re saying” moments. When you start learning like that, you will know that you have a Welsh-speaking layer in your brain that is growing all the time!
Iestyn, can you remind me again what sounds like - Fire away Fire o Fire away - Tommos phrase means? It’s really bugging me. Also his partners reply - dŵ dŵ dŵ - which I’ve translated in my head as - do it do it do it or I will.
The organ player became famous for a YouTube clip where he was getting a touch agitated while watching Wales play Rugby. He was screaming something along the lines of “Oh, goodness gracious me, Ffaro!”
Nad yes, dw dw dw is “ydw” but yd once just means yes, ydw a number of times means “yes of course!”
Dioch, Pawb! I was using both phrases last week in Gwynedd, Wales with great hilarity…injecting them into every pub chat.
EDIT: I’ve just found this link to the organ player Iestyn referred to; and as Robert says is Cardi
Thought you were saying it at Bootcamp as well Kim boi … wasn’t quite sure what you were saying but it sounded great fun and always made me smile… :-)))
Iestyn: Southern “co” can also be “dyma”: Co fe - There he is; Co ti - the lovely Wenglish “there you are”.
I often here people on Pobol starting sentences with ‘co’ in roughly the same way that we would probably use ‘Look’ in English, and I’ve been wondering about it for ages, so diolch Iestyn! Is it still meaning ‘dyma’ here (because I can see how you could start a sentence with it in this context) or am I misunderstanding?
