The future of Cymraeg

What is the stated endgame of those responsible for the survival Cymraeg? And what are your own hopes?

Over the past couple of months (since I joined SSiW, of which I am now on Lesson 6 of Course 2), I have been reading about the history of the language. How 200 years ago Wales had a (presumably Welsh monoglot) population of about 600K people.

Then the influx of people due to industrialisation did something very odd. It appeared to increase the number of Welsh speakers. The 1911 census tells us that over 1 million people could speak Cymraeg. This would represent the zenith of the language, therefore. Presumably the industrial immigrants picked up Cymraeg. And then, sadly, each decade therefter brought a steep decline in numbers to the 500K we have today - which thankfully seems to have bottomed out and steadied around that number.

So where do we go from here? I would like to see steeper increases in the number of children attending Welsh medium schools. I would like to see an endgame whereby, like the Scandinavian countries, generations of Welsh kids grow up speaking English and Welsh equally fluently.

2 Likes

In another post, I implied that (as an Englishman) this should be none of my business really - it’s up to the Welsh to decide whether their language will live or die.

But having said that, I’ll comment anyway: :smile:

My vision is of a properly independent Wales, which means it looks after its own finances and has its own currency (which could include local currencies).

If the economy was less dependent on the English speaking world, there would be less feeling that one had to speak English in order to survive and prosper economically.

The same applies to Scotland IMHO, although the language situation is somewhat different there.

You may say: look what happened to Ireland: they have been independent since 1922 (Irish Free State), and in spite of government support, the Irish language is not in a particularly healthy state. Well yes, but I would say Ireland’s economy remained dominated by that of Britain for a long time, and they kept their currency more or less pegged to the pound sterling. Then they hitched their wagon to the EU and the Euro, with initially good, and then later disastrous results. So in a way, I question how independent they have been, and of course, Ireland haemorrhaged vast numbers of people to English-speaking countries, so obviously a need to speak English was always an expectation.

I’m not of course saying that Welsh people should not learn English - that would be silly. But what I am saying is that it should be gradually possible to make it just as economically valuable to speak Welsh as it is now to speak English. I did say this is part of a “vision”, so we are not talking about anything like this happening any time soon, and probably not in my lifetime. But I think it would be kind of cool if Wales and Scotland became the new “Celtic Tiger” economies, leaving England trailing behind, and it was English businessmen frantically trying to learn Welsh and Gaelic in order to do business over the border, rather than the other way around.

And by the way, if having your own currency is seen as a barrier to success, it’s worth looking to Scandinavia which the OP mentioned. Although they are culturally and linguistically very close, very wisely they have kept out of the Euro and don’t even have a currency union between them (which you might have expected) - they each have their own Kroner, and the exchange rates differ quite widely.

If you give up your currency, you give up your freedom, as the Greeks found out. By the same token, if you want real independence, you need your own currency, and I’m surprised the canny Scots aren’t seeing this yet.

2 Likes

The advance of Welsh medium education is a good thing, however I think it’s slightly worrying that many graduates stop speaking Welsh as soon as they leave. If we’re going to be optimistic about a new young generation with a large % of Welsh speakers taking up the mantle of the now very old generation (and past generations) who also had many Welsh speakers then we have to make sure that the young generation is more likely to adopt Welsh as a first language, which I’m not sure is the case.

Also I’m very surprised that GCSE Welsh learners don’t achieve a better standard of Welsh than they do currently, in England even in schools in which a language GCSE is compulsory it’s common to only teach the language for 3-4 years. Considering Welsh pupils study the language as soon as they step foot in school I’m very surprised that as of yet no one’s figured out a way to teach them Welsh to a standard at least equivalent to A level in a foreign language.

2 Likes

Who are these people who are “responsible for the survival Cymraeg”?

Rob - I’ve put that too strongly. I’m referring to the people who make legislation, decide where money is spent etc. The Welsh Language Commissioner, for example. I am asking what their macro goals are (if they have them). Are the choices they are making effective in reaching these goals? Or are they rudderless and “re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic” by faffing around the edges (which is how some people see the some of the bilingual paperwork etc).

My own personal ultimate goal would be to emulate the Scandinavian model. An interim goal would be to match the 1 million Welsh speakers of the 1911 census. To reach this target I would want to roll out more and better Welsh medium schools as a starter. And supplement this by seeking to create ways in which pupils can continue to use Welsh when they leave school.

Obviously I haven’t thought through my manifesto thoroughly as yet :slight_smile:

2 Likes

Rob Bruce - “Who are these people who are “responsible for the survival Cymraeg”?”

Mrs J Myrtle (27 Fantasia Terrace, Neames)
Dr Hector Witherpole (Oxon, failed) (Basement Flat 27b, Balaclava Trce, Weston Super Mare)
and
Major Miriam Fortescue (retired), no fixed abode.

2 Likes

I posted the above at the same time as Jason Williams’ answer, and didn’t notice that due to my attention being distracted by a (rather terrible) film.
Just meant to be a bit of nonsense, apologies if it inadvertently comes across as being a bit insultingly flippant in the circumstances Certainly wasn’t meant to be, if that makes a difference.

1 Like

IMH (and distant)O, and speaking as one who also has no real right to comment apart from a love of the language, I think education of children is not enough. An adult attitude change is what is required. Non-Welsh speaking Welsh adults need to see the value of the language. Shopkeepers should be taught to value Welsh speaking customers. A sense of even a little bit of Welsh is better than nothing approach should be adopted. If I stay in South Wales with family and go for a walk, or go to a shop, I can’t even use Welsh greetings. If I do, it appears to cause acute embarrasment - as if I’d farted (sorry to be so crude). But it’s like I’ve done something really inappropriate. If it could even just become okay to use a small amount of Welsh in daily transactions, that would be a big step in my opinion. Kids can go to Welsh schools but if the adults raising them aren’t bothering to use the language, that sends a huge message. It relegates the language to a quaint little practice that isn’t ‘necessary.’

Actually, it’s just as well I don’t live in Wales. I’d be insufferably awyddus. :slight_smile:

1 Like

I don’t think there’s really anyone who has actual responsibility for the survival of the language in an official sense. There’s the language commissioner whose job is to ensure that the language is considered when public (and some private) policy is made, and there is a whole host of politicians and civil servants at various levels who at least in part are tasked with ensuring that the language dimension of policy is considered. How effective or enthusiastic they are in this is open to question.
And maybe not having big figurehead ‘language survival czars’ is right, because Welsh isn’t just a discrete ‘thing’, it’s a tread that flows through and intertwines with our whole nation, culture, society and economy.
One thing that could be done pretty quickly and would have an enormous immediate effect would be to declare the language ‘strongholds’ of the north and west to be Welsh Only areas where all public business would be conducted through the medium of Welsh. All public signs would be in Welsh only, all public servants from the chief exec of Ceredigion County Council to the person who picks up litter on Tresaith beach would be Welsh speakers as part of their employment terms and conditions, all communications with public bodies would be through the medium of Welsh, with help provided for non-Welsh speakers as it is for non-English speakers in England.
This could be phased in very quickly and would send out an immediate message to both Welsh Speakers and non-Welsh speakers alike.
Too many people think this is too radical, though, and would scare too many horses.

1 Like

Robert Bruce:
“One thing that could be done pretty quickly and would have an enormous immediate effect would be to declare the language ‘strongholds’ of the north and west to be Welsh Only areas where all public business would be conducted through the medium of Welsh. All public signs would be in Welsh only, all public servants from the chief exec of Ceredigion County Council to the person who picks up litter on Tresaith beach would be Welsh speakers as part of their employment terms and conditions, all communications with public bodies would be through the medium of Welsh, with help provided for non-Welsh speakers as it is for non-English speakers in England”

Who can argue that?

.

1 Like

Well, I suppose the arguments against it would be that a) it’s divisive and brings into question the whole concept of Wales as a single nation - would it turn us into Belgium?
Which leads onto b) Would the Welsh speakers in the south and east become marginalised?
And c) It cuts across current (and historical) political boundaries - what would happen in north Pembrokeshire and Western Montgomeryshire and Dyffryn Clwyd?

1 Like

Not really in a position to be having opinions about this, but here’s my two pence, for what it’s worth… how much pie in the sky can you get for two pence?

…well, from a tourist’s point of view, I’d love to see Cardiff take the lead and align itself culturally with other great European cities - I mean in the sense that if you go to Paris or Berlin or Rome or wherever, you expect to feel like you’re somewhere a bit different to what you’re used to at home, and you expect to hear a different language on the streets - that’s the appeal of holidays, I think. I’d love to see Cardiff - and I love this delightful, beautiful, friendly city - stop being just “the western-most city of England”, and really embrace its Welshness through its Welsh language.

2 Likes

My solution is to speak the language in all initial contacts after crossing the Border or going about your daily business Aran, Iestyn et al are right in the way they set up this learning framework, it doesn’t matter if you make mistakes, eventually it all comes good. For the first two days of the Eisteddfod I was all over the place ond ddydd Gwener ac ddydd Sadwrn…rwyt’in hedfyn

1 Like

@ Owain (Lurch) - I thought nothing of it! Thank you for saying that anyway! :slight_smile:

“Well, I suppose the arguments against it would be that a) it’s divisive and brings into question the whole concept of Wales as a single nation - would it turn us into Belgium?”

'What’s wrong with Belgium? Or Switzerland?

I think making those stronghold areas totally Welsh speaking is a great start. It would mean the people who buy into the area have to embrace the language rather than eroding it’s base. Then, it’s a matter of changing attitudes in the non-Welsh speaking areas. But…maybe people there don’t want to change? I met children in Port Talbot who couldn’t speak any Welsh despite being born, raised and educated in Wales. Apparently, this is normal? Their parents thought me very odd for wanting to learn Welsh. They were more interested in their investment properties in Ewrop. They complain about ‘the English’ yet are happy to live fully in the English language.

1 Like

According to a friend of mine who lived there for quite some time, the first language French and Flemish speakers of Belgium pretty much hate each other - I imagine that’s what he’s talking about.

The problem is, artificially marking out certain areas as “Welsh only” is already going to change the attitudes of the non-speakers. For the worse. To them, it’ll say “You’re not welcome here because we’re better than you”.

1 Like

Of course, this would kill tourism. I can’t imagine many midlanders would be too charmed to find themselves on a non Engłish speaking caravan holiday. It seems to me that countries that achieve great change (think Holland and bikes) need to take drastic measures.

1 Like

The thing is, how far is too far? For one thing, there’s Bangor and Aberystwyth universities. Having those areas declared to be Welsh Only would basically kill both universities - nobody is going to learn Welsh just to go to university.

1 Like

Without fully excluding people from Welsh speaking areas there’s still plenty of room for improvement that wouldn’t segregate differen’t segments of Welsh society. A big problem as far as I see is the fact that many monoglot English speakers don’t really see the value in Welsh being preserved as it’s not “practical”. In other words English speakers moving to Gwynedd with no intention of learning Welsh do not see it as a bad thing because as far as they’re concerned everyone in Gwynedd speaks English, and therefore if the people of Gwynedd make an effort to speak Welsh over English then they’re just rude and selfish individuals whom many English speakers would view as extremists. The problem is that they don’t really recognise that most of Gwynedd’s Welsh speakers are more comfortable speaking in Welsh and that it is personally an important part of who they. Functionality isn’t the only reason to speak a language. The trouble is even in areas in areas of British cities where English mightn’t be spoken much everyone at least speaks English and all formal activities are undertaken in English, therefore there aren’t really any English speaking groups (outside of Gibraltar I suppose) who can truly empathise with declining Welsh areas.

I am definitely in favour of the idea of sending all home buyers in Welsh speaking areas letters to inform them that it’d be appreciated if they learnt Welsh as it’s culturally important to the area and would also help improve the social wellbeing of a large portion of the society they’ve just joined.

2 Likes

Now that I can agree with. Perhaps the letter also ought to include something to the effect of “When the locals speak in Welsh, it isn’t out of a wish to exclude you, it’s just because that’s the language they’re most comfortable speaking”. Perhaps even a link to SSiW ;).

1 Like