The future of Cymraeg

Welsh
#21

" A big problem as far as I see is the fact that many monoglot English speakers don’t really see the value in Welsh being preserved as it’s not “practical”. In other words English speakers moving to Gwynedd with no intention of learning Welsh do not see it as a bad thing because as far as they’re concerned everyone in Gwynedd speaks English, and therefore if the people of Gwynedd make an effort to speak Welsh over English then they’re just rude and selfish individuals whom many English speakers would view as extremists."

Yes, this is the attitude that needs addressing. I’m not sure how…but it is a crucial factor IMO. But it’s not only people moving in, it’s the monoglot English speakers born in Wales too. How can they come to see its value? My relatives don’t appear to…

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#22

I don’t think there’ll ever be a time when everybody in Wales speaks Welsh (and honestly, I doubt there’ll ever be a time when Welsh is anything but a minority language). There are a few things that need doing in order to get more people to learn Welsh. First, we need more Welsh language entertainment, and it needs to be widely available. Not just television and radio, but films, music of various styles and video games.

I mean, you’ll never get the kids listening to male voice choirs (sorry, but it really isn’t going to happen), but hearing it in the styles that they listen to will make them more interested in learning what the words mean.

Also, according to Wikipedia, there are something like 12 films in the Welsh language in total. Even if we can’t make more films in the language, we at least need to get films dubbed in Welsh, or otherwise that’s another thing that people will only do in English.

For the television, there’s the usual, incredibly boring daytime television, there’s two soap operas, and there’s Y Gwyll. Again, Welsh needs more good television; the English language has tons of fantastic programs, from Breaking Bad and Game of Thrones for people who like their TV dark and brutal, to things like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Doctor Who for those who like more light hearted fare. Again, there’s not enough money in Wales to fund all of this kind of stuff being filmed in Welsh, but some decent dubbing would make this something else people can do in the medium of Welsh.

And, again, there are video games. Localisation can be pretty expensive; I’m quite aware of that. That said, being able to play your favourite video games in Welsh would, again, give people something they can do in their preferred language. This would be cheaper in text heavy games, and more expensive in games with lots of voice acting, but it’s something else that people in Wales can typically only do in English.

These things won’t stop Welsh from being a minority language (like I said, I don’t believe anything ever will), but they’ll give people more opportunity to use the language - which certainly can’t hurt.

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#23

Perhaps we should campaign for Doctor Who to be available dubbed into Welsh. The series is made in Wales, so it shouldn’t be too hard to do from a practical point of view.

Interestingly, I believe ALL Chinese language programmes in China are subtitled (in Mandarin) to raise the general standard of both the spoken and, I suppose written language.

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#24

Yes, Davies makes the same point in her book on the history of the Welsh language. The days of a fully Welsh speaking Wales are past. :frowning: I’m just concerned not to see the language eroded further. And for that not to happen the English speakers must also play a part.

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#25

Some really interesting thoughts here. I don’t think the decline in Welsh can be entirely blamed on incomers (writing as one who is about to be an incomer!) Purely anecdotal evidence, but my brother-in-law was recently despairing that people he grew up with speaking Welsh in an almost entirely Welsh-speaking village now speak to their children in English. They seem to have stopped valuing their own language, and children are very situational (is that a word? it is now) about their language: my nieces will only speak Welsh with their father; they think it would be ‘weird’ to speak English with him. Presumably, the children of his childhood friends think it equally ‘weird’ to be speaking Welsh with their parents. I think that’s sad.

I agree very strongly with Chris Parker about the culture side of things. My nieces watch all the sorts of programmes that you’d expect teenagers to like: Britain’s Got Talent, Hollyoaks, TOWIE… But there’s nothing on S4C to interest them. But funding is a major issue here. My wife works on Welsh-language drama, and the budgets have been cut so far that ‘shoestring’ wouldn’t be far off the mark. I think the only reason Y Gwyll could look as great as it did was that the producers found additional funding from elsewhere - but that meant they had to make an English-language version as well.

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#26

Although more and more welsh medium schools are opening I’ve found that in overwhelmingly English speaking areas that those children who’s parents also do not speak Welsh tend to lose the language very quickly, except for school they spend most of life in the medium of English, I met 20 year old student the other month who did primary and secondary education in welsh, but then told me he forgot it all, I found this strange so proceeded to speak Welsh to him, and actually understood everything and even corrected me on a few things, he then spoke to a friend of mine who is fluent to a high level that I couldn’t understand. It seems that because he stopped speaking Welsh when he left school he lost confidence and the fact he lives in Swansea he has no opertunity, but he gave me the impression that he and his Welsh speaking friends all speak English to each other,

On the other side my sister who lives 18 miles up the road near Carmarthen only speaks welsh to her family and friends, this is because nobody in her village or near by village speaks English.

So as much as there are more people than ever in wm education, in English speaking areas, loads are lost. The way forward is to secure current communities and create new community’s of Welsh speakers, in Swansea we have 2 wm comprehensive schools and 11 primary, but they are scattered all across the city and there’s probably 5 to 7 em primary schools inbetween, with all the pupils coming from all across the city, so Welsh speaking children never bump into each other. What should happen imo is for all schools in one area to be Welsh medium, that way over a few generations a community of Welsh speakers could be created with local Welsh speaking shops etc…

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#27

How come, if things are downbeat regarding a positive future, virtually all the youth rock bands and writers are performing in Cymraeg?

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#28

Can you walk into HMV and pick up one of their CDs? Can you download their music off of the Internet? There are a lot of really good Welsh language artists - that you’ll only ever hear of if you listen to Radio Cymru on a regular basis. Most people these days only listen to the radio at work, so…

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#29

Jason certainly has started an interesting thread. I’ll add my pennyworth. Firstly statistics from the census appear straight forward in that they state the number who can speak the language. However, far from everyone who can speak the language does so on a regular basis. Some commentators fear a tendency among non-welsh speaking parents with children receiving Welsh as a second language in school to record those children as Welsh speakers when completing the census forms. I know from my own experience when living and working in Wales (I’m an ex member of staff from Menter Iaith Abertawe) that Welsh when taught as a second language produces only a small percentage of fluent speakers from the English medium schools. Solving the problem of poor quality Welsh second language teaching in the English medium schools would produce results. The question is how.
Even those who become fluent do not necessarily continue to use it after they leave education. I recall once being on a course at Popeth Cymraeg in Dinbych. We were the experienced/fluent group on the course. Two people in the group had received Welsh medium education until 18 and were there as staff members of the Probation Service to brush up their Welsh. in their own word they had not used their Welsh since leaving school. Another big issue is the constant flow of Welsh speaking young people leaving Wales to pursue work or education outside of Wales. Providing better work and educational opportunities within Wales would provide a motivation for a higher number of such young Welsh speakers to remain in Wales. The now defunct Welsh Language Board, produced a report calculating the number of Welsh speakers living in England and Scotland - and calculated this as at around 120,000 people. Some sources estimate 3-5,000 Welsh speakers leaving annually. Lack of employment opportunities and high house prices are part of the reason for this constant drain.
As some contributors have already noted it is important to give Welsh an economic value. Again easier to suggest than to achieve overnight.
Tourism as an economic driver is not effective. Too many of the jobs are seasonal, poorly paid, and the industry perhaps encourages further inwards migration by non Welsh speakers happy with house prices and the landscape but hostile to learning the language. Some years ago one of the North Welsh Estate agencies did distribute a glossy brochure the aim of which was to introduce or remind potential buyers of the first language Welsh speaking culture of Gwynedd. I’m not sure if there is any evidence as the effectiveness of the project. That Welsh remains so strong in and around Caernarfon is due in part at least to the Welsh Language policy of Gwynedd County Council, thus creating an economic value and jobs for Welsh speakers.
Those responsible for maintaining Welsh include all who speak it - including the learners of SSIW, and the numerous movements within Wales including Cymdeithas yr iaith, Dyfodol, Clwb Ffermwyr Ifanc, Merched y Wawr, Yr Urdd, Yr Eisteddfod Genedlaethol, the Welsh Government, Welsh local government, school and Unviersity education.
It is a long continuing battle and we can all contribute. Daliwch ati.

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#30

@Chris: Totally agree with you that digital media are hugely important to the future health of the language. Read recently that something like only 1% of Welsh speakers (or was it 11%? Not being a reliable source here!) tweet regularly yn Gymraeg. A lot of people spend a lot of their time consuming media online and traditionally, so it’s vital that the language has a strong presence there too.

According to Wikipedia, there are something like 12 films in the Welsh language in total

Even though it’s still not exhaustive, the list on Wicipedia looks a lot healthier! :wink:

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#31

Huh. I should have looked it up in Welsh then; there are far fewer films listed on the English category “Welsh Language Films”, and most of those English as their primary language.

#32

Stuart Stanton said : “My solution is to speak the language in all initial contacts after crossing the Border or going about your daily business”

Good for you! An excellent attitude. This is something that everyone and anyone on this site can do, and, in my opinion, make a real difference. The more Welsh is spoken, the more it becomes an even greater part of everyday life. Now, I speak Welsh whenever I have the opportunity, which means I speak Welsh every day in Swansea, and often exclusively for an entire evening out. This in somewhere where before I started learning Welsh I thought there was hardly any Welsh spoken! Good for you Stuart, let’s do our bit to make Welsh more visible!

Stuart Stanton said :“How come, if things are downbeat regarding a positive future, virtually all the youth rock bands and writers are performing in Cymraeg?”

I often go to Welsh gigs in the Gwachel in Pontardawe. All sorts of music is on there, appealing to different, and all ages! Marvellous atmosphere, the place is packed with people of all ages having a wonderful time all, completely naturally, through the Welsh language!
Always have a wonderful time there, and come away feeling good.

Chris Parker said :“Can you walk into HMV and pick up one of their CDs? Can you download their music off of the Internet?”

The Welsh language section in HMV is so small it is almost not there at all, yes, but I think (I know nothing on the subject) that the most important thing is having it available on the internet nowadays. And as far as I know, the music is available for purchase off the internet. I have certainly done it. Am I wrong? As I say, I know nothing about it- are you aware of it not being available?

I certainly know lots of people who like Welsh Music, enjoy Welsh music, go to Welsh music gigs and have bought Welsh music from somewhere! (Whether that would be “hard copy” or internet download, I don’t know, not being someone who talks about music that much. Though I do enjoy listening to it!)

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#33

Inspiring stuff!
I remember Rob (Bruce) once saying that he always speaks Welsh to young people, because they will have either learnt it at school, or speak it natively, and I found that a good plan. It worked here in Sydney in the pub :slight_smile: Stuart’s plan is even better, of course.
As to Welsh music, I am subscribed to one of the many internet music streaming services, and there is a large amount of Welsh music available of all types. I am quite taken by 9Bach at the moment.

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#34

Lliwiau by 9Bach is a good tune. Available on iTunes.

#35

Diolch pawb…here is a small ‘challenge’ you may wish to take…ask for a ticket while on-board with Arriva Trains. Their staff are just fine but I have been told their knowledge of the language has to extend no further than placenames…it’s not all bad though, on the way back from the Eisteddfod I noticed that Craven Arms Station - six miles at least on the English side of the Border has bi-lingual signage!

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#36

With regards Welsh films, I am amazed that a film about Prince Madoc has not been made. True or myth, it’s a great story.

#37

@Chris You can download Welsh music from the internet! Most established and non-established bands use Soundcloud as a platform to showcase their music, but some more established artists do have their music available on iTunes - which means there is a chance for their music to actually chart (should enough people download it in the same week!). As Owain said, there is only a small area where Welsh CDs and DVDs are available for sale in HMV, and it’s usually at the tail ends of the regular shelves where the New Releases are usually on display (I can vouch for this from my last visit to the Swansea store last month!)
If you are going to look for Welsh music online, you will need to know what bands to look for, as typing “Welsh Music” or “Cerddoriaith Cymraeg” won’t work! I can tell you that bands like Sŵnami, Trwbador, Yr Eira, Y Reu, Candelas, Mattoidz and Violas have music available on iTunes, as does Cerys Matthews, Gruff Rhys, Caryl Parry Jones and Kizzy Crawford. I’m sure there are MANY others across other genres also.

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#38

…and not just on iTunes, I found all those names on my streaming service…thanks Gavin!

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#39

@Jason Williams

Apparently S4C are going to be showing “I Grombil Cyfandir Pell” in September. Based on Gruff Rhys’s “American Interior”, a multimedia (album, book, film thing) about an ancestor of his who was searching for the Welsh Indians descended from Madoc.

http://www.s4c.co.uk/americaninterior/e_index.shtml
And

#40

Hope it is the Cymraeg version…entertaining film but we got the English version with some subtitles at the Hyde Park in Leeds. No spoiler intended but I wonder if they will subtitle into Cymraeg the Native American language interludes?..have decided, re comments above, to not refer to
‘Wales’ anymore, Cymru am Byth from now on