Sheesh - now Wrecsam council want to take down Saith Seren's flags

While true - this is a time for raising the flag not throwing in the towel. Keep writing those letters into the council in support of Saith Seren and their beautiful Welsh flagorama,


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I do not believe that considering a move to cheaper premises could reasonably be considered as “throwing in the towel”.
In fact, “gloriously failing” rather than succeeding by considering such a move is, to me, closer to throwing in the towel.

I would simply rather the Welsh centre succeeded.
But that does not mean I would support any Welsh centre in whatever they do- I support the Welsh language rather than Welsh centres or people running Welsh centres. When the two coincide, I am quite happy to support both.

Funding or support should not automatically be given to something simply because it is a Welsh centre- Any money or support could often be used to support the language in other ways, sometimes better ways. I have sometimes seen this in various things done by Welsh centres elsewhere, but I am not saying anything about Saith Seren as I have little knowledge of the place.

Sorry if this comes across as a little prickly, but I really don’t like the implication that I am throwing in the towel because I am not supporting Saith Seren on this issue!

Yup. I don’t think any of the questions over the origins or the details of this case prevent anyone from writing a letter of support. As long as the flagpoles don’t impinge on the basic fabric of the building, then they are a necessary addition. The alternative is that the centre dies from anonymity, the building becomes unused and empty and eventually falls down through neglect. It’s a well-worn path for buildings such as this.


Yes, especially as I’ve read somewhere in May during support campaign that land lords would rather see the building being put to ruins so they could build something new there … It might very well be I’ve understood this wrong, but I believe I did not though. And I somehow feel Saith Seren is this building itself despite there was not always Saith Seren in it though.

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If they put up any of the flag poles without listed building consent, they broke the law, Sorry folks, but that’s the way it works. If they took down a flag pole which was part of the building as listed, that would be illegal too!!!
So, options:

  1. They ask for listed building consent for the poles they want and put up with fewer flags if the appeals process comes up with no improvement.
  2. If told they must take down two flag poles at the front and can put up none at the back, they could push them out of windows, so that no change to the building occurs!
    3, If the fact that Listed Building legislation is a hell of a pain and expensive to deal with is causing Saith Seren too much hassle and expense, they look for an unlisted building and move there!!
    Usually, in these cases, the Listed Building Officer can’t help the situation. The Law is the Law and grinds exceeding small!!
    Telling Wrecsam we value Saith Seren is lovely, but it can’t help with Listed Building Law!!! (OK I’m not a lawyer, only a barrack room one), but surely one of you knows one or is one, check!!!

Probably easier to solve the Syria conflict than fly a Welsh flag in Wales!!!


They asked if I understood correctly so they need answer and (might be) support, that’s all.

I can’t see any proof here that the council wants people to stop flying Welsh flags. The council have said they want two flags, which is twice as many as needed for flying the Welsh flag. I really think we need more proof over this particular incident before saying the council is trying to stop people flying a Welsh flag.

It certainly is not difficult to fly a Welsh flag in Wales- they are all over the place.

I have now received an official looking acknowledgement for the email I sent. It bears a reference number “P/2015 /0936” and refers to (as Hendraig says) “Listed Buildings Consent”.

It’s just a straightforward acknowledgement and is not a substantive reply to the case in question and says it will be passed on to the case officer who will read it before making a decision.

The letter is in English and Welsh (a parallel text in other words) and it was worth emailing just to get an example of one of those (in formal Welsh as well).

The application is for “LISTED BUILDING CONSENT FOR THE ERECTION OF 6 NO FLAG POLES”. (I don’t understand why the word “NO” appears there, but I’ve copied and pasted it exactly as it was).

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It does, rather. Considering that your initial point was (as I understood it) in part about choosing your battles wisely, I wonder if continuing to post about how and why you choose not to support this particular campaign is a particularly valuable use of your time. You’ve already spent a fair bit more time posting in here than it would have taken to email the council!

To be honest, I always find it a little puzzling when anyone feels the need to say that they don’t support something - unless, of course, they actively want to persuade other people not to support it either.

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You obviously don’t want any further contributions from me on this subject, so it will suffice to say I want to see effort or money expended on the Welsh language in the best way to benefit the Welsh language.
Beyond that I have no interest in explaining to you why I choose to spend my time as I wish.
[edit, cc to Justin and Eirwen, as they apparently say the same thing.]

Ups …

Well, I’ve sent my e-mail in Saith Seren support but I didn’t go on barricades burning something there and fight with the council. As I didn’t have any proper guidance what to put into subject line I’ve just done something as best as I could. My usually “fighting” tone in support of something vanished here and I have rather just told the council for what purpose I believe those flags are (so much) needed to be flying up there and what I - with all du respect - would like to happen (to be decided).

To “calm passions” here down a bit (I hope I won’t rather fire them even more …) here’s what I’ve written:

Subject: Saith Seren and their flags … - support for planning application

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of the council.

I’m Tatjana Prelog from Slovenia, one of those thousands Welsh language learners who lives out of Wales, many of us not even have a drop of Welsh blod, who care for this beautiful language enoug to learn it and actually (try to) speak it whereever and whenever we can.

Back in May this year we’ve supported the quite big campaign and pledged our money to ensure for Saith Seren to stay opened and serve its purpose as it always did or even beyond that. Saith Seren means a lot for us, Welsh language learners, even to those of us who never were there, knowig it enables Welsh native speakers and learners to get together. It is important for preserving and spreading Welsh culture and language. Well, at least this is what we know and what those, who care for this ancient beautiful language and Welsh culture say. We are supporting “our” venue with whatever we can, being spreading the word about this great place, going there - those who can go - having our own “learners” practicing meetings there, visiting gigs and other cultural events which are held there … whatever for Saith Seren to be recognized as one of those “homes” of Welsh language and culture.

Everything what could make this great venue more recognizable and enables it to be easily spotted as such Welsh center (as I’ve heard such venues are to be called there in Wales) is important and if those would be even flags which (I know) are hanging on the building and for which I’ve heard their management applied to have them more.

I don’t know the policy of your country regarding this matter and I wouldn’t interfere with this but if one single additional flag which would hang there could do at least a tiny difference for Saith Seren to be more recognizable and easily found by those who care for the language and culture then I’m here to say my share in their support for their application to be granted for those flags to hang there …

Not only those people of Wrecsam who care, not only those of your country - I’d like to let you know that there’s also International “community” who supports Saith Seren in what they’re doing for Welsh language and culture and what they represent. Every culture and language with it is important and so is Welsh too and if there’s a tiny thing more to be done in supporting it, it should be done so I would like to, with all due respect, ask you not to take even one single flag down off their building but rather enable their additional 2 flags which their comitee applied for to be hung on.

I know for sure that the work they do at Saith Seren, they do it with love and care for Welsh language and culture, but they can’t do it without the people who would visit their venue and this for they need every single bit of what might attract visitors if even flags …

I’m a Welsh language learner who is slowly and steadily turning into confident Welsh speaker and I know one day I might just appear in Wrecsam. When I do I’d like Saith Seren still to be there opened, welcomming us Welsh learners\speakers and Welsh culture lovers\admirers, knowing I’d surely be able to speak a language I’ve learnt and knowing I might meet some of my friends\co-learners there.

Thank you for your valuable time for reading my letter

With respect and kind regards from Slovenia

Tatjana Prelog - KnightGhost

The only awkwardy which happened to me when sending this e-mail was that it was sent twice. I was working on the tablet and tapped the wrong button but the e-mail was not finished yet so I’ve sent it once again. I hope this wouldn’t make any damage on the matter. I also hope I’ve done my job at least a bit well with it not harming anyone and giving some hope into whole matter. I’m a bit irritated with sending e-mail twice but what’s done it’s done …

Well, if I read what you, @mikeellwood have copy/pasted from reply you’ve got I could make a conclusion there could be two things they’re botherred with

  1. or it actually bothers them the flag poles are empty (as Carrie from Saith Seren said the flags are currently not flying because they’ve took them off due to strong winds)
  2. or those poles are not meant to carry such flags at all in the first place (what is most unlikely, I believe though).

The 3rd thing might be that they actually don’t want those 4 flags te be taken down but wouldn’t like additional 2 to appear.

That “NO” could mean actually whatever you choose though …


The “6 no” seems to be way of writing “6, number of” in planning applications. Google searches give plenty of examples with “6 no flag poles” “4 (no) flag poles” “4 no. signs and 2 no. flag poles” and so on.
As I say, that’s just what it looks like - can’t say for sure.


Hmmm … to be honest, I didn’t even try to search in Google but yup, it might be as you say. Seams logical to me at least.


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The language of council departments and forms is often a thing apart…
Say Something in Officialese, anyone?


Sounds cool! :slight_smile:

You can search for case number P/2015/0936 here:

However, for the moment, it doesn’t say any more than it’s pending, and there are no supporting documents. Watch that space for a change of status…

You can do it in Cymraeg as well:

(and yes, does exist and takes you to the same place, but at some point, the domain name gets anglicised… :slight_smile: )

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Nothing found searching through their search engine …

It even says in Slovene “Ni zadetkov” (No matches) :slight_smile:

Sorry, try here:

And put “P/2015/0936” in the “Case Number” field.

But I got there from
Then “planning applications”
then “Search Planning Applications”
then you are here:

put that search string in the “Case Number” box. (without the quotes).

Diolch. I’ve found. Will monitor what happens.