While true - this is a time for raising the flag not throwing in the towel. Keep writing those letters into the council in support of Saith Seren and their beautiful Welsh flagorama,
Justin
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I do not believe that considering a move to cheaper premises could reasonably be considered as āthrowing in the towelā.
In fact, āgloriously failingā rather than succeeding by considering such a move is, to me, closer to throwing in the towel.
I would simply rather the Welsh centre succeeded.
But that does not mean I would support any Welsh centre in whatever they do- I support the Welsh language rather than Welsh centres or people running Welsh centres. When the two coincide, I am quite happy to support both.
Funding or support should not automatically be given to something simply because it is a Welsh centre- Any money or support could often be used to support the language in other ways, sometimes better ways. I have sometimes seen this in various things done by Welsh centres elsewhere, but I am not saying anything about Saith Seren as I have little knowledge of the place.
Sorry if this comes across as a little prickly, but I really donāt like the implication that I am throwing in the towel because I am not supporting Saith Seren on this issue!
Yup. I donāt think any of the questions over the origins or the details of this case prevent anyone from writing a letter of support. As long as the flagpoles donāt impinge on the basic fabric of the building, then they are a necessary addition. The alternative is that the centre dies from anonymity, the building becomes unused and empty and eventually falls down through neglect. Itās a well-worn path for buildings such as this.
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Yes, especially as Iāve read somewhere in May during support campaign that land lords would rather see the building being put to ruins so they could build something new there ā¦ It might very well be Iāve understood this wrong, but I believe I did not though. And I somehow feel Saith Seren is this building itself despite there was not always Saith Seren in it though.
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If they put up any of the flag poles without listed building consent, they broke the law, Sorry folks, but thatās the way it works. If they took down a flag pole which was part of the building as listed, that would be illegal too!!!
So, options:
- They ask for listed building consent for the poles they want and put up with fewer flags if the appeals process comes up with no improvement.
- If told they must take down two flag poles at the front and can put up none at the back, they could push them out of windows, so that no change to the building occurs!
3, If the fact that Listed Building legislation is a hell of a pain and expensive to deal with is causing Saith Seren too much hassle and expense, they look for an unlisted building and move there!!
Usually, in these cases, the Listed Building Officer canāt help the situation. The Law is the Law and grinds exceeding small!!
Telling Wrecsam we value Saith Seren is lovely, but it canāt help with Listed Building Law!!! (OK Iām not a lawyer, only a barrack room one), but surely one of you knows one or is one, check!!!
Probably easier to solve the Syria conflict than fly a Welsh flag in Wales!!!
Justin
They asked if I understood correctly so they need answer and (might be) support, thatās all.
I canāt see any proof here that the council wants people to stop flying Welsh flags. The council have said they want two flags, which is twice as many as needed for flying the Welsh flag. I really think we need more proof over this particular incident before saying the council is trying to stop people flying a Welsh flag.
It certainly is not difficult to fly a Welsh flag in Wales- they are all over the place.
I have now received an official looking acknowledgement for the email I sent. It bears a reference number āP/2015 /0936ā and refers to (as Hendraig says) āListed Buildings Consentā.
Itās just a straightforward acknowledgement and is not a substantive reply to the case in question and says it will be passed on to the case officer who will read it before making a decision.
The letter is in English and Welsh (a parallel text in other words) and it was worth emailing just to get an example of one of those (in formal Welsh as well).
The application is for āLISTED BUILDING CONSENT FOR THE ERECTION OF 6 NO FLAG POLESā. (I donāt understand why the word āNOā appears there, but Iāve copied and pasted it exactly as it was).
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It does, rather. Considering that your initial point was (as I understood it) in part about choosing your battles wisely, I wonder if continuing to post about how and why you choose not to support this particular campaign is a particularly valuable use of your time. Youāve already spent a fair bit more time posting in here than it would have taken to email the council!
To be honest, I always find it a little puzzling when anyone feels the need to say that they donāt support something - unless, of course, they actively want to persuade other people not to support it either.
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You obviously donāt want any further contributions from me on this subject, so it will suffice to say I want to see effort or money expended on the Welsh language in the best way to benefit the Welsh language.
Beyond that I have no interest in explaining to you why I choose to spend my time as I wish.
[edit, cc to Justin and Eirwen, as they apparently say the same thing.]
Ups ā¦
Well, Iāve sent my e-mail in Saith Seren support but I didnāt go on barricades burning something there and fight with the council. As I didnāt have any proper guidance what to put into subject line Iāve just done something as best as I could. My usually āfightingā tone in support of something vanished here and I have rather just told the council for what purpose I believe those flags are (so much) needed to be flying up there and what I - with all du respect - would like to happen (to be decided).
To ācalm passionsā here down a bit (I hope I wonāt rather fire them even more ā¦) hereās what Iāve written:
Subject: Saith Seren and their flags ā¦ - support for 7seren@gmail.com planning application
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen of the council.
Iām Tatjana Prelog from Slovenia, one of those thousands Welsh language learners who lives out of Wales, many of us not even have a drop of Welsh blod, who care for this beautiful language enoug to learn it and actually (try to) speak it whereever and whenever we can.
Back in May this year weāve supported the quite big campaign and pledged our money to ensure for Saith Seren to stay opened and serve its purpose as it always did or even beyond that. Saith Seren means a lot for us, Welsh language learners, even to those of us who never were there, knowig it enables Welsh native speakers and learners to get together. It is important for preserving and spreading Welsh culture and language. Well, at least this is what we know and what those, who care for this ancient beautiful language and Welsh culture say. We are supporting āourā venue with whatever we can, being spreading the word about this great place, going there - those who can go - having our own ālearnersā practicing meetings there, visiting gigs and other cultural events which are held there ā¦ whatever for Saith Seren to be recognized as one of those āhomesā of Welsh language and culture.
Everything what could make this great venue more recognizable and enables it to be easily spotted as such Welsh center (as Iāve heard such venues are to be called there in Wales) is important and if those would be even flags which (I know) are hanging on the building and for which Iāve heard their management applied to have them more.
I donāt know the policy of your country regarding this matter and I wouldnāt interfere with this but if one single additional flag which would hang there could do at least a tiny difference for Saith Seren to be more recognizable and easily found by those who care for the language and culture then Iām here to say my share in their support for their application to be granted for those flags to hang there ā¦
Not only those people of Wrecsam who care, not only those of your country - Iād like to let you know that thereās also International ācommunityā who supports Saith Seren in what theyāre doing for Welsh language and culture and what they represent. Every culture and language with it is important and so is Welsh too and if thereās a tiny thing more to be done in supporting it, it should be done so I would like to, with all due respect, ask you not to take even one single flag down off their building but rather enable their additional 2 flags which their comitee applied for to be hung on.
I know for sure that the work they do at Saith Seren, they do it with love and care for Welsh language and culture, but they canāt do it without the people who would visit their venue and this for they need every single bit of what might attract visitors if even flags ā¦
Iām a Welsh language learner who is slowly and steadily turning into confident Welsh speaker and I know one day I might just appear in Wrecsam. When I do Iād like Saith Seren still to be there opened, welcomming us Welsh learners\speakers and Welsh culture lovers\admirers, knowing Iād surely be able to speak a language Iāve learnt and knowing I might meet some of my friends\co-learners there.
Thank you for your valuable time for reading my letter
With respect and kind regards from Slovenia
Tatjana Prelog - KnightGhost
The only awkwardy which happened to me when sending this e-mail was that it was sent twice. I was working on the tablet and tapped the wrong button but the e-mail was not finished yet so Iāve sent it once again. I hope this wouldnāt make any damage on the matter. I also hope Iāve done my job at least a bit well with it not harming anyone and giving some hope into whole matter. Iām a bit irritated with sending e-mail twice but whatās done itās done ā¦
Well, if I read what you, @mikeellwood have copy/pasted from reply youāve got I could make a conclusion there could be two things theyāre botherred with
- or it actually bothers them the flag poles are empty (as Carrie from Saith Seren said the flags are currently not flying because theyāve took them off due to strong winds)
- or those poles are not meant to carry such flags at all in the first place (what is most unlikely, I believe though).
The 3rd thing might be that they actually donāt want those 4 flags te be taken down but wouldnāt like additional 2 to appear.
That āNOā could mean actually whatever you choose though ā¦
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The ā6 noā seems to be way of writing ā6, number ofā in planning applications. Google searches give plenty of examples with ā6 no flag polesā ā4 (no) flag polesā ā4 no. signs and 2 no. flag polesā and so on.
As I say, thatās just what it looks like - canāt say for sure.
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Hmmm ā¦ to be honest, I didnāt even try to search in Google but yup, it might be as you say. Seams logical to me at least.
Diolch.
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The language of council departments and forms is often a thing apartā¦
Say Something in Officialese, anyone?
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Sounds cool! 
You can search for case number P/2015/0936 here:
http://planning.wrexham.gov.uk/Planning/lg/GFPlanningWelcome.page
However, for the moment, it doesnāt say any more than itās pending, and there are no supporting documents. Watch that space for a change of statusā¦
You can do it in Cymraeg as well:
http://planning.wrexham.gov.uk/Planning/lg/GFPlanningWelcome.page?lang=cy
(and yes, wrecsam.gov.uk does exist and takes you to the same place, but at some point, the domain name gets anglicisedā¦ )
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Nothing found searching through their search engine ā¦
It even says in Slovene āNi zadetkovā (No matches)
Sorry, try here:
And put āP/2015/0936ā in the āCase Numberā field.
But I got there from http://www.wrexham.gov.uk/english/index.cfm
Then āplanning applicationsā
then āSearch Planning Applicationsā
then you are here:
http://planning.wrexham.gov.uk/Planning/lg/plansearch.page?org.apache.shale.dialog.DIALOG_NAME=gfplanningsearch&Param=lg.Planning
put that search string in the āCase Numberā box. (without the quotes).
Diolch. Iāve found. Will monitor what happens.