I’d say that most of us needed absolutely no training in formal grammar in order to be perfectly fluent (and correct) in speaking and understanding our first language.
It’s just possible that the formal study of grammar enabled some of us to be able to write our first language more correctly and perhaps achieve a higher overall quality than we might otherwise have done.
If the same holds true for a second language, then arguably, you do not have to study the formal grammar of that language in order to speak and understand it correctly, but you might have to in order to write it to a high standard.
“Discuss” (as they say ).
(But now I’ve forgotten the other point I wanted to make (and which was much more important - I think ).
Oh yeah, remembered now: It seems that most if not all of you lot are “cheating” by having within your demesne, native speakers whom you can apparently call upon at the drop of a hat.
Any chance you could clone some of these and send them my way…?
Indeed, none of us needed formal grammar training in our first language.
But most of us had in our first language-
1- a pair of parents following us round constantly in our early years, talking to us during all of our waking hours for many years, encouraging us to talk back, correcting us, reading books to us whilst we sat on their knees or lay in bed and-
2- were in a situation where everyone else in the environment was speaking that language, where we spoke that language with everyone else outside the family, where we had to speak that language outside the family.
Neither is generally true for people learning Welsh (or any other second language, but certainly Welsh in most cases).
So as we don’t have individuals on tap to answer questions about the language, correct us and speak to us, we need to turn to something else. Books, generally. Whether as written to stand on their own, or as the written form of courses outside the class when you can not ask the teacher particular questions (if you have a good teacher ;-))
Now, without some sort of arrangement of a myriad number of books in a weird library which has passed the Turing test, one can not have a conversation with a book, interact with it or ask a book or course “how do you say… whatever”. They have to deal in generalities. The “rules” of grammar. The rules which speakers apply, both subconsciously and consciously when they are speaking. Which can be used to come up with possible ways of saying things, which can then be tested when you are speaking to someone in Welsh or listening to someone speaking Welsh. Less efficient than having Welsh speakers on tap to ask and talk to and play off, but more efficient than nothing!
(God that was meandering. Well, you did say "discuss! ;-))
That’s a neat summary of the current situation. The interesting question, of course, is whether or not that can be improved on
I suspect we don’t need to ask questions so much as to have exposure to language. I’m witnessing very little by way of questioning about language up to almost-6, despite an encouraging breadth of vocabulary.
But (of course) as adults we’re used to asking questions about things, so we’re back to the intriguing balance between a dominant paradigm and the possibility of more efficient approaches…
Well, there is ffrinDiaith for this kind of connection, but I don’t know how many people actually have one. I am lucky enough to have access to a first language speaker even though I live outside Cymru, so I recognise I’m fortunate in that respect. I really hope that ffrinDiaith gets a boost soon, as its a great idea that has real poential.
I think FfrinDiaith is a great idea. But my nearest fluent speaker member is 130 miles away. I know there is Skype or the phone, but it’s not the same as sitting down with a cup of coffee to chat. Be good to chat with you sometime Stu!
Hi @annesuggate, correct me if I’m wrong but I thought your nearest fluent speaker sits across the breakfast table from you. Isn’t your husband a fluent Welsh speaker?
Yes! Gwyn, my partner, is fluent - and we do talk Welsh a bit most days. It’s good to try with other people though. Be good to talk to you sometime Geraint!
The fastest way forward for you bar none would be to identify regular patterns for using Welsh with Gwyn - even if you just start with one hour once a week, it’ll make a huge difference…
Or maybe never talking anything other than Welsh with him ever again unless you absolutely have to. Easier said than done I would think but a great opportunity. That’s the dream.
Great replies. A lot of them mention aspects of learning Welsh that I couldn’t figure out how to put into words.
Knowing/learning patterns is a big one…especially when translating from English to Welsh. I don’t want to commit the sin of trying to translate word for word, but without knowing Welsh patterns…or what English “patterns” aren’t Welsh…it’s tough not to.
On to the next question…yes, still from Captain America…
To say what unit are you with?, would you say efoch’di’n (sp?) beth uned? or would the word order stay the same and be beth uned wyt ti’n efo?
I would have said it would start with Pa uned… myself, perhaps followed by gen ti / gyda ti? Or ydy dy rai? Not sure at all really, about the way you would end the question, but pa uned sounds right… No doubt someone will be along to confirm or deny soon enough.
I’m not sure I get exactly what this means in English! Is it what you would ask someone if you want to know how far they’ve got?
In general terms, you’ll probably progress faster with this kind of stuff if you focus on increasing your exposure to the language as much as possible, rather than trying to figure it out on a case by case basis. One of the things we’re going to try and do with the post-Level 3 material we’re planning will be to help provide exactly that kind of expose
And maybe something to point out is the difference between “pa” and “beth”.
English uses “what” as both a “what thing” sort of word, for which Welsh uses “Beth”-
“What are you doing?” - "beth wyt ti’n (ei) wneud
“What are you reading?” “Beth wyt ti’n darllen”*
“What’s happening?” - “Beth sy’n digwydd?”
And a “what…” In an “adjectival” sort of way, for Which Welsh uses “pa”-
“What book are you reading?” - “pa lyfr wyt ti’n darllen?”*
“What pig are you washing?” - “pa fochyn wyt ti’n golchi?”*
(And, indeed, “what unit are you with?”)
As always, don’t take my word for it and all corrections welcomed! But hope of a little help.
[*- or “wyt ti’n (ei) ddarllen”, and similar, but that is a different matter!]
).
Be good to talk to you sometime Geraint!