QUESTIONS: How To Say

Welsh General / Questions
#42

Only if you stick a “na” in there as well, surely? To make it “Is there one of you who knows…” instead of “does one of you speak…”. A different construction.

Otherwise the fact it is not a “specific” noun means you use “oes” instead of “ydy”, doesn’t it?

The “'na” in there certainly complicates things ;-), but it is not compulsory, I think!

I disagree that not worrying about it is always the best way.
If “not worrying about it” includes ignoring points of grammar.

I certainly find that a knowledge of grammar improves my ability to listen out for such things- much quicker, in my experience, than simply waiting until it sinks into my subconscious. Thus, a knowledge of grammar allows me to listen out for and remember the grammar used by people I speak to. It enables me to understand and learn how it is actually used faster and better.

Just in my experience, as I say.
But also the experience of other people who are learning/have learned Welsh I know.

Not a universal truth, though, I am sure.

#43

Oh, and I am not sure that the sentences I put would be used naturally by Welsh speakers, (the construction put forward by Robert Bruce may well be more natural) but that is not relevant to the point I am making now. The point is that what knowledge of grammar I have enables me to hear natural sentences when they are used, know what to look out for in some circumstances, and recognise particular points, enabling me to understand and remember better than I did when I had less of a grasp of grammar.

It may just be I am terrible at picking up languages by osmosis! But it works for me, as I said.

[edit- and just to stress on occasional points! Trying to break down everything you hear like that would drive you mad! But I have found the more grammar I know, the more frequently those occasional points occur.)]

#44

Just a few things I felt I could help clarify from the above:

It’s exactly like in English here - you can either say pob dyn (every man) or pob un o’r dynion (every one of the men). Sometimes you’ll also hear pob un dyn, which is literally “every one man”, but the idiomatic English equivalent would be “every single man” - i.e. it means the same thing but is a bit more emphatic.

The reason this doesn’t work is that naill ai is “either” when it’s used in “either…or” type sentences. So you could say: Mae’r Smithsonian naill ai yn DC neu yn Llanidloes (the Smithsonian’s either in DC or in Llanidloes). But I don’t think there’s a direct equivalent of the “either” in “does either one of you…” - it feels to me like another of those funny little things that English does for no reason - which is why Stu’s more natural-sounding suggestion doesn’t include it.

(Oh, and FWIW, I second Rob’s opinion that oes would need a sydd. And then you get a definite feeling of “Is there anyone here who…?”)

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#45

Just had a chat about this with a first language speaker tonight, who is thankfully happy with talking about such things occasionally!

He thought that

“Oes un ohonoch chi’n gwybod…”
“Oes 'na un ohonoch chi’n gwybod…”
“Oes 'na un ohonoch chi sy’n gwybod…”

[irrelevant and terrible literal translations-
“is one of you knowing…”
“is there one of you knowing…”
“is there one of you who is knowing… /(i.e. is there one of you who knows…)”
ignore this stuff in the square brackets ;-)]

were all equally “good” ways of saying the thing.

Asked him specifically if any of them sounded unnnatural, he said no, just different ways of saying the same thing.

As always, just one Welsh speaker’s way of saying and feeling about the things!

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#46

As always, I’m open to being corrected, but aren’t oes and oes 'na exactly the same thing in spoken colloquial Welsh? That’s what I’ve always believed. I hope I haven’t been getting it wrong all these years! :smile:

I think we’re talking about different things when it comes to “just not worrying about it”. By all means study grammar and get into the intricacies of it - it’s all genuinely interesting stuff that ties into culture and history and human psychology. But when it comes to 10:30pm down the Eagles Inn and you’re having a knockabout conversation with some friends, the last thing anyone wants to be doing is calling a time out for a couple of minutes while they do an internal lookup of grammar rules in order to decide how the next question should begin. And even then over-thinking it and not being able to decide what is correct anyway. There’s a time and a place: That’s what I meant by “not worrying about it”. :smile:

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#47

I think we are both open to being corrected, as always!

Thinking about it, yes (unsurprisingly!) I was wrong on that point and you are quite right I would think! I was just thrown by the sentence “Oes un ohonoch chi sy’n gwybod?”, which didn’t sound quite right to me, but thinking about it can’t see why not!

That’s certainly how I use “Oes 'na” too, though the sentence form under question was a little odd to me, apparently throwing us both off - I still maintain that your main point that you should use “ydy” if you do not use the ‘sydd’ is wrong!

About grammar, the thing is in my case (as I have stressed) it has had more of an effect than knowledge about culture, history and human psychology.

I think I made it clear in what I said that trying to do it on every sentence would drive you insane. I am used to talking nonsense with people in Welsh in pubs - it’s what I was doing last night, its even possibly the language I do it mostly in at the moment, Not sure, haven’t worked it out.

But I find it helps. To represent the sole alternative to knowledge about history and psychology as it as meaning breaking off for ten minutes while you search through an internal grammar book is to misrepresent what I was saying. Of course you don’t do that. I stressed that I simply see and pick up on occasional points more effectively. And that those occasional points become more frequent the more grammar I know- so as I say, it had more of an effect on me than satisfying a desire to know about history and psychology!

It’s what I find, it’s what some other people who are learning/have learned Welsh I know find, this does not mean it is true for everybody.

#48

[edit- which is why I find your above contributions particularly usefull- thanks!]

#49

That’s what I’d say :sunny:

Although I’d probably go for ‘Smithsonian’ instead of ‘Smothsonian’ - sadly, since the latter has a rather lovely charm to it, and would probably have some fantastic collections of winged insects.

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#50

Argh…Ap Geiriaduron has naill ai listed as a rhagenw (pronoun) AND an ansoddair (adjective)…I thought for sure it could be used as the subject of a sentence. This definitely adds a wrinkle to my dictionary usage.

@owainlurch, the above is definitely relevant. Knowing/hearing the literal translation helps me to learn more how Welsh is patterned…and how not to translate the English I hear word for word into Welsh.

Now I know that the phrases Either of you know/do/etc… Any of you know/do/etc… in English would be structured as Is there one of you who is knowing/doing/etc… or Is one of you knowing/doing/etc… in Welsh.

Always, always, always, always corrrect my Welsh.

#51

If you see him again, please give him my hearty thanks!

#52

I was myself was under the impression that “naill” on its own (or rather with neu’r llall", or the other, so a “neu” is still required if not a ‘ai’ if you see what I mean ) could be used in such a way- hence the suggestion of “ydy’r naill neu’r llall” in my original post. I have no idea whether that would work in this context, though.

Googling “naill neu’r llall” certainly shows liberal usage of it as a subject eg - (Mae’r naill neu’r llall yn gywir.) Whether this is a natural way of using it, as I say I have no idea- 'll be looking out for people using it, and using it myself to see what happens now!

Not to put words in Kinetics mouth, but he didn’t actually say it couldn’t be used in this way - just the “naill ai” structure works in that way!

[as you say, all corrections looked for and welcomed!]

Always a good idea! But please, please, please don’t put too much weight on what I say! And though those do come from the horse’s mouth, as it were, it’s one degree removed and those are just one way of putting across the concept!

And if you haven’t seen it, I definitely refer you to Aran’s answer above :wink:

#53

Oh, he enjoys it and is very helpful!

And not to flog a dead horse, but think of the replies you could get on how to say the concept in English.

Do either of you know…
Does either of you know…
Does one of you know…
Does one or the other of you know…

and so on. So it is in Welsh! Something to remember, when translations are not, as you say, word for word!

#54

I think I queered my own pitch here with my well-worn aversion to formal grammar. Yes, of course learning grammar helps with becoming proficient. I assumed that it kind of goes without saying. So I didn’t say it. I should have added it to the list for the sake of clarity, of course i should. :blush:

But generally the ‘learning grammar’ stage of language acquisition is probably best left until after you’ve accumulated the basics via a more absorption-based initial stage. Just as happened with all of our first languages, I would think.

#55

Hooray! We all agree! :wink:

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#56

I remain firmly unconvinced…:wink:

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#57

Depends on what value you’re using for ‘proficient’, I suppose. I think Owain has rather higher aspirations for his Welsh than I do for mine. :wink:

#58

Also perhaps on what we choose as the parameters for ‘learning grammar’, maybe. But at my stage (fairly natural speaker + published writer but needs to think and check written work very carefully indeed!) it still doesn’t feel to me as though ‘learning grammar’ is what I need to do next. :sunny:

#59

I think this is a main point, actually.
There’s learning about grammar in huge chunks from books about grammar, and then there is learning the patterns of a language, asking about how it works, as all the questions on this thread are doing- a response to one of which triggered this particular conversation. And learning this from books and lessons is, I have found, a very good way of doing this - you don’t have to wait until someone answers (or does not answer!) your question on this thread, or wait until you meet your Welsh speaking friend down the pub, when you in fact generally want to speak to him about something other than learning Welsh!

I only know two people very well who have learned Welsh to a level of being able to live and work in the language (again, both published and fairly natural speakers), and they both think that the second was important for them. In fact, very important. As I have found for me regarding affecting the speed at which my Welsh has been improving. In fact, very important.
And that goes for learning to read in Welsh as soon as possible, too. :wink:
But as I say, just the opinion of a small number of people.

You know, I think we are all going to remain firmly unconvinced on this one! :wink:

Mind you, I do know someone who has achieved what seems to me to be fluency in Welsh in adulthood through doing no lessons at all- no SSiW, no classes,no books, just through the novel method of simply speaking to people in Welsh.

So it certainly is not necessary!

I do have a feeling though, that our opinions on this matter are more of a matter of degree than principle, especially, as you say, taking into account the differing parameters for “learning grammar”!

Or maybe not… :wink:

[Still,note to anyone reading this, Aran knows a darned sight more learners and people who have achieved fluency than I ever will! I don’t know enough to make the sample size significant!]

#60

Even small samples are of interest - but I do think that currently, successful learners will be skewed towards people who have a (conscious/unconscious) bias towards study of grammar, because it is such a central part of the entire formal education system.

It doesn’t surprise me at all that you would feel positive about the success you’ve had with your studies of grammar - and so you should! - and of course there’s an important impact in terms of people feeling good about what they’re trying to do, so someone who believes deeply in the importance of studying grammar may well do better if they study grammar than if they don’t - at the same time, we don’t have any good evidence I’m aware of one way or the other for any impact that may have on the speed of acquisition.

#61

Now that’s very true. Good point.

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