How do say heaven in Welch. My friend says Welch is the language of Heaven!
Sue
Iaith y Nefoedd ydy’r Gymraeg!
“Heaven” is “y Nefoedd” (strictly speaking, that’s ‘the Heaven’) – often shortened to “y nef,” pronounced “uh NEHV.” And yes, it is!
In the Lord’s Prayer it is ‘y nef’ singular, so perhaps ‘nefoedd’ is more strictly ‘heavens’. Y Geriadur Mawr uses both forms for ‘heaven’
What version are you talking about, Margaret?
It’s “y nefoedd” in my Beibl (not that I often read it 
)
If I remember correctly, “ein Tad, yr hwn wyt yn y nefoedd”, but “megys yn y Nef, felly ar y ddaear hefyd”, or something like that!
It’s strange coming to understand things from when you were a child…
As Margaretknock says, “nefoedd” is simply the plural form of “Nef”.
Something sort of similar in English. “In the Heavens” etc, but not quite as interchangeable.
(Wonder if it is translated from the use in Hebrew or Greek or something?)
As Margaretknock says, “nefoedd” is simply the plural form of “Nef”.
Makes sense. Even in English, we sometimes refer to “the heavens”.
It’s singular in seithfed nef (seventh heaven) too
@Owain
I think the first attested translation of the Bible (Salisbury) into Welsh was from Greek, and I believe subsequent ones as well. In Greek, Our father, etc. is “Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς” - ‘en tois ouranois’, in the heavens, literally.
And I found some communication on the internet that says that throughout the Greek bible, the plural and singular are both used, the traditional explanation being that the Hebrew word was dual number (Greek having lost its dual by that time), hence the confusion. So maybe it should be deunef
Dwynef, if I’m allowed to be pedantic. 
In Latin it’s plural as in “pleni sunt coeli et terra gloria tua”
Diolch yn fawr, Louis!
However, at the back of my mind (a very dusty unpleasant place, where no one would really want to go) I seem to remember that William Morgan actually had quite a knowledge of Hebrew, (perhaps to an extent which was a bit unusual for the time?) and that William Morgan’s Bible is supposed to be closer to the Hebrew than the English Bibles at the time. This may all be complete nonsense.
Not to mention that from what you say, I might seem to be arguing against my original suggestion
@ Rob Bruce “if I’m allowed to be pedantic”
Who are you, and what have you done with RobertBruce?
Thanks Owain, yes Morgan’s original translation - and thanks for pointing out his knowledge of Hebrew - had little to do with any English bibles, but Wikipedia (my friend) says that in 1620 Morgan’s 1588 version was revised “to bring the text into greater conformity with the Authorised Version of the English Bible of 1611” - I wonder why, possibly because as you suggested it was closer to the Hebrew version. The question I now have is, were both “nef” and “nefoedd” used in the 1588 version? I don’t suppose you have a copy at hand?
Incidentally, the Lord’s prayer, being part of the New Testament, was originally written in Greek.
Ooo, diolch yn fawr unwaith eto, Louis!
Yes, Salisbury’s version of the New Testament was apparently Not Very Good in a lot of ways. Both in its use of Welsh and in its translation, so any decent alteration would have been an improvement! Again, this is just from stuff what I have read.
Mind you, as you say, the Welsh and English bibles were, not surprisingly, connected- though William Morgan was the main translator, he had other people working with him, and I believe someone who worked on ‘his’ Welsh bible also worked on the English (King James?) translation. I think whoever it was was responsible for “yea, though I walk through the valley of death” in English, but again, this could all be nonsense.
Apologies, just come back from the Welsh SSiW group in the Bay View, and they were serving Reverend James Ale. (And the new barmaid there speaks Welsh! Yay!)
(And no, sorry, no William Salisbury New Testament with me. I did have an original, but I swapped it for a copy of “Asterix a’r Ornest Fawr” and a Double Decker last week.)
But thank you very much for the info on the New Testament being just in Greek originally! Though I am not a religious person, my knowledge of the Bible is still shameful.
I wish you hadn’t mentioned the Reverend James, I still have a whole day of work ahead of me…
As you don’t have time to either drink fine beer or surf the internet, according to Wicipedia, the earliest Welsh version of the Lord’s Prayer comes from the 13th/14th century in “Llyfr yr Ancr.”
“Ein Tad ni, yr hwn ysydd yn y nefoedd,”
And
“Bid arnam dy [e]wyllys di megys y mae yn y nef [ac felly] yn y ddaear.”
So “Nef” and “nefoedd” used there as well. But apparently translated from the Latin.
“Cyfieithiad rhydd ydyw o draethawd Lladin, y De Quinque Septenis seu Septenariis Opusculum, gan Hu Sant (Hugo o St. Victor), un o ddiwinyddion mwyaf y 12fed ganrif a ddarlithai ym Mharis.”
So not sure if that is of any relevance.
Still trying to track down William Salisbury’s version, but sleep is calling…
(Oh, sorry!)
[Oh, speaking of good beers, they do Gower Power in bottles now. I would offer to send you some, but it would mean less for me.]
I am touched by your hypothetical generosity of spirit, but my suffering has now intensified
[oh, and sorry for misreading your message re 1588, Salisbury and Morgan, ayyb. I blame Reverend James.]
oh, and sorry for misreading your message re 1588, Salisbury and Morgan, ayyb. I blame Reverend James.]
What with misleading you over biblical matters, he sounds like a turbulent priest. 