OK,in this lesson Aran says; Wela 'i beth mae hynna’n ei feddwl.= I’ll see what that means.
Now apart from the use of ei here which is covered in previous questions. My little rule book tells me that ‘sydd’ ALWAYS follows beth and not ‘Mae’ Should not this sentence be Beth sy hynna’n ei feddwl?
and similarly with Beth mae o’n ei feddwl being beth sy o’n ei feddwl? The rule book also tells me ‘Sydd’ (among other translations ) means ‘THAT IS’ so can we correctly say Beth sy’n meddwl? Or doesn’t it matter what we say
it will be understood? I have come a very long way with this language (sometimes going into it too deeply admittedly), to pack up now, but it is silly things like this that will make me abandon it.
Grr
John
If that is all your little rule book says, unfortunately you have a very bad little rule book. A rule book which is wrong, alas. 
If you do want to use little rule books (and I myself think that is a good thing), you need to find a better little rule book.
For instance, this is from the pocket Modern Welsh dictionary by Gareth King (Not my favourite writer, but certainly one of the best, and easily the most accessible!)
under “beth”
“This question word is followed in the present tense (and wedi- perfect tense) by “ydy” in identification sentences, and otherwise “sy” when it is the subject and “mae” when the object of the sentence. Compare the following :
“beth ydy hwn?” = “what is this?” (identification sentence)
“beth sy’n digwydd?” = “What is happening?” (beth is subject)
“beth mae’ch brawd yn wneud dyddiau 'ma?” = what is your brother doing these days? (beth is the object, 'ch brawd is the subject)”
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As Owain says, John, beware of books that give you hard and fast rules like that, because generally natural languages don’t quite work that way. No-one is going to stop and l=think about which “rule” to use, what’s the object or subject, and so on, but =they will have a natural feel for what sounds right. Some hardy folk like Owain can cope with the grammar, but personally I cannot, so I just try to follow what I hear others say, and don’t worry over much about the fine grammatical details.
Hwyl,
Stu
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I wasn’t saying beware of rules- personally I think that that the Gareth King books give good rules to follow. I was saying make sure you have a good book which gives good rules! Gareth King is always a good bet.
I am not particularly hardy, on this matter, and know plenty of people who can cope with grammar. In fact, everybody else I know well who is learning Welsh. But If you don’t want to, or would prefer not to,no problem.
You can also follow what other people say, have light hearted nonsensical conversations with them whilst also considering grammar to whatever degree you want.
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Yeah basically, the important thing to remember is that the SSIW course will not lead you astray. If you need to know the whys and wherefores, sure check in a book. I have been known to have a glance at my copy of Gareth King’s book myself, and found it instructive. But I hold my hands up and say that I do not know a whole lot about English grammar, but I am an effective technical writer with a good degree of literacy, and most of the time I come out with stuff that sounds right. If you are a poet of course, grammar is your plaything, and “breaking” the rules is often what makes a poet’s work particularly powerful and striking.
Stu
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Oh, indeed. You know the Welsh used in it is one natural form of Welsh.
I know next to nothing about English grammar (which may be obvious in the way I write!) and much more about Welsh, actually.
The learning processes were, for me different. I found making up sentences to be easier when using a grammar book, because I was not exposed to Welsh all my waking hours as I was with English when I was learning it (and, of course, I still am learning English!). They were places I found it useful to pick up extra ways of saying things which I could test out when I next came to speak Welsh with someone (or not, depending on how the conversation went!), and I still do find that.
Still, horses for courses.
Certainly, though I can see grammar not being for some people, and do see it in people, I can’t imagine SSiW being of no use to anyone! As far as I can imagine, it would help everyone.
Saying that studying basic grammar is not of use to anyone is, in my opinion, just wrong though.
It is to me! And I have enough of an idea of how my learning process has worked to say it is not just a placebo effect. But I have no idea how many other people it would be of use to.
Not sure in which of my contributions I said this?
You didn’t. I was simply speaking generally about the subject.
Okay, good, I didn’t want to be misunderstood here 
Stu
Oh, no, not directed at you at all 
Stop!stop! I like the Owainlurch answer thanks! Right the rules I have been referring to state the following:-
- Sydd always follows Pwy,Beth, pa un, pa rai and faint/sawl.
- When sydd is the last word in a sentence, it means which is or that there is.
- Sydd can only be preceded by its own subject.
- If sydd follows Fel it means like it is.
Any which way you look at it, this is just plain wrong.
If you’re kind, and interpret it as saying that you always need one of those words before sydd (instead of the more dramatically wrong idea that the only word you can use after one of those is ‘sydd’), there are other words that can be followed by sydd - rhywun, for example.
Dwi’n nabod rhywun sydd isio siarad efo chdi.
Mae gen i ffrind sydd isio dod efo ni heno.
Meanwhile:
Beth wyt ti isio gwneud?
Pwy welodd y gêm?
etc etc.
So I’m with the already expressed idea that this little book of rules you have is not the best example of the genre! 
Again, if those rules look very odd to me.Taking each of them-
1 - Each one of those words can be followed by “sy”, “ydy” or “mae” in the same way as “beth” and under the same circumstances as above.
2 - I can’t think of any circumstances in which “sy” would be the last word in the sentence! (I could be wrong though.)
3 - I think that is right.
4- Seems a a bit of an odd example to stress.
So, going by what gareth King says in the Oxford Pocket Modern Welsh Dictionary above - when those words such as “beth” are being used, if they are followed by “sy”, they are always subjects. (They can also be subjects if followed by “ydy” in identification sentences, I would think). And they are objects if followed by “mae”.
Again, if that is all the book says, and the rules are not taken out of context, the book is simply wrong, and I would not trust that book to explain matters to you.
Could I ask what book it is?
Ah, better answer from Aran, of course!
Spent so long typing that answer I missed his post, as seems to often happen with me!
Dwi isio gwybod beth sydd - roughly analagous to ‘I want to know what the matter is’.
Dan ni wedi trafod beth nad yw’n bosib; mae’n amser troi at yr hyn sydd (and other not particularly likely to be heard in speech examples ).
Diolch yn fawr iawn!
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Diolch for this Owain, because I hadn’t twigged the subject-object aspect. If this begins to sound like Grammar with a capital G, then I guess it might put people off. However, I’m sure it could also be re-framed in such a way to be more like “this is what we say here, and that is what we say there…”, kind of thing, but will have to think (and listen and read) a lot more before attempting it.
In passing, which writer(s) are your favourites, in contrast to Gareth King? (You said he was not your favourite writer). He’s the only person I’ve properly read on Welsh grammar, but if there are better ones, it would be good to know.
Thanks Aran, I will accept your explanation as the last word on the matter,and revise my learning of Beth within the contexts described.Isnt it annoying though when learning a language and given rules from what you thought was an authoritive book.
Turns out to a load of baloney? The book is now appearing at the local dump in disgrace.
John
I think it’s one of the huge challenges of a grammar-based approach - in that it is so difficult to have complete rule systems for stuff beyond the very basic - which means (for my money) you need to be scrupulously clear about when you’re offering a general guideline, when you’re offering an accepted grammatical ‘rule’ that will nonetheless get messed about with in colloquial speech, and when you’re offering a ‘rule’ that is observed almost without exception.
I’d guess that whoever put together the book you’ve been using was thinking very specifically about the use of ‘sydd’ to the point where it felt natural to skip over other possibilities - perhaps, for example, he or she meant that ‘Sydd always follows pwy, beth, pa un, pa rai and faint/sawl in situations where those words are being used with sydd’…
But it does sound as though you’d be better off getting hold of some of Gareth King’s stuff (and/or, of course, going with the flow, getting through all the lessons, and then listening to enough Welsh for it to become automatic for you ).
Oh, for my money the best grammar book would be a collection of several thousand huge volumes, giving, under each word or phrase headings examples of numerous sentences showing how they are used in different ways and under different circumstances.
However, in order to fit into a book rather than a huge gothic library, they have to be condensed down to rules.
Mind you, with computer storage nowadays, maybe one could try something along those lines…
It would be good if they were on audio, to give accurate pronunciation…
Hmmm… That’s an idea! Wonder why no one has thought of that yet…
Gareth King’s books are excellent.I don’t think I could recommend something else if you are only going to have one grammar book. He has an excellent way of explaining things, which is what you want! And the fact he himself has learnt the language as an adult means he knows what points to bring up, perhaps more than someone who has not.
With, for example, Heini Gruffudd’s Welsh Rules, you know you are getting information from someone who has an excellent natural grasp of the Welsh language, lives and has lived much of his life through Welsh, and is wholly, naturally and comfortably familiar with the Welsh language throughout Wales.
With such books, you want someone who is-
- more familiar than you with the language, and
- good at explaining things.
The better they are at point 2, the better the book is.
This is not necessarily the case with point 1. Though you need someone more familiar than you, someone even more familiar with the language does not necessarily write a better book. Point 2 is the most important.
I like Heini Gruffudd’s Welsh rules, and other books. It would be a good one to use, but I would have to recommend Gareth King’s book as one if you are only going to buy one.
But where Gareth King’s books differ from (eg) Heini Gruffudd’s, or from the views of my Welsh speaking friends, I have found it best to always go with other (reputable! )writers (and of course Welsh speakers I know.)
I must stress that those occasions are, in number, like the intellect of Bertie Wooster according to Jeeves-
“Negligible. Quite negligible.”