Can you put 'gyda' at the end of a sentence?

Hi all,

In terms of a sentence like: ‘I need someone to practice with,’ would it be grammatically correct to say: ‘Mae isia i fi rhewen i ymarfer gyda’? It doesn’t sound right to my ears. Would the sentence structure/word order change for a statement like this?


I think not. In that case, you could simply turn it round with:

“I need to practice with someone”
“Mae isio i fi ymarfer gyda rhywun”

However, I suspect there should be a more general solution, but I don’t know what it is.

Maybe something like: “Mae isio rhywun i ymarfer gyda hi/fe”
“I need someone to practice with her/him”.

(sounds clunky in English, but might just work in Cymraeg!)


Diolch. I’ll keep that in mind.

In addition to Mike’s reply, you could say “Dw i angen rhywun sy’n ymarfer gyda fi”.
But yes, changing the word order around would be best for the “mae eisiau i fi…” construction.

1 Like

You know I’m not even a bit of an expert here but this sounds the most correct in relationship of what @Karla wants the expression should be. So I’d go for this one …

@aran, @Iestyn, your thoughts?

1 Like

This is correct for ‘I need someone who practices with me’, so not quite the same… :slight_smile:

Mike is on the money here - also, if you were starting off in Welsh (rather than trying to find an equivalent for a phrase in English) something like ‘Mae angen i mi ffeindio rhywun i mi ymarfer gyda nhw/fe/hi’…


:slight_smile: This looks complicated … two “mi” in the sentence … would have get used to it.


Diolch! I had a feeling it wasn’t going to be a particularly simple sentence! :smile:


I seem to remember that Gareth King breaks these sorts of sentences down into their different components, and then rejoins them in various ways to suit the particular sentence. I don’t have any examples to hand, but I found this (fearsomely long!) paper on the web, where someone (interestingly with a Japanese-looking name) compares what they call “P-stranding” (“Preposition stranding” I think) in both literary and colloquial Welsh. There is far more there than anyone would surely really want to know(!), but there are quite a few example sentences given.

Here is the link:

(If that link doesn’t work, try googling for “Preposition stranding in Welsh”).

and I found this example (page 127) for “efo” (same as “gyda”):

" y ffrind wnes i chwarae tenis efo"

This is compared with a similar sentence in literary Welsh which ends “efo fo”
(that would be the northern equivalent of “gyda fe”).

“the friend I played tennis with”
(or: “the friend I played tennis with him”).

The paper author says that pronouns at the end of sentences can be left out in colloquial Welsh (and I’ve certainly seen examples of that in written colloquial Welsh, e.g.

“…iddi.” where “iddi hi.” is understood.

Kind of suggests you could actually get away with “gyda” at the end, in colloquial Welsh.

(just to complicate the issue - sorry!).

(Edit: This seems to be a better link: Finalised.pdf


Diolch yn fawr, that’s a very interesting (and complicated!) dissertation. It looks like the grammar is far more flexible than I initially thought.

1 Like

The iddi one is a bit different, though, because the word iddi already encodes the hi-ness, if you know what I mean. Some prepositions never change (gyda fi, gyda fe, gyda hi) but some do depending on which pronoun comes after them (amdana’ i, amdano fe, amdani hi). So, with those ones, you can leave off the pronoun and let the ending of the preposition do the work. This is actually common in Fancy Welsh and isn’t colloquial at all (if anything, it’s Fancier to leave them off!). However, leaving the pronouns off the non-changing prepositions is definitely very colloquial - which is fine, but avoid it in formal writing and stuff. :slight_smile:


Hi, Just a thought from a beginner:
English language purists/pedants might even question the original English version ending in the word “with”, as this is a hanging proposition. They may prefer “…practice with me” or “…with whom I can practice”. I suspect that Aran’s and Mike’s translations will reflect that.

Edit: I’ve just realised that this was from 2015 :frowning:

No problem - people resurrect old threads all the time!

From what I know, that rule against ending a sentence with a preposition (in English) was invented in the nineteenth century, and is pretty much disregarded these days. It seems that in Welsh it actually makes a sentence sound abrupt and unfinished, to my ears anyway. :slight_smile: