When you use ECDI or WRTHOT TI

I would like to understand when to use ECDI after a verb of WRTHOTI – it seems the latter is used after GOFYN but the former anywhere else.
Are they interchangeable and can TI be used also?
Diolch Ifor

If I’ve understood your question, I think you are referring to the difference between i chdi and wrthot ti.
i chdi (and i ti) are the singular/informal ‘you’ when you use the preposition i, so those (chdi is just a colloquial version of ti) will appear whenever you have the preposition i + ti.
wrthot ti is the singular/informal ‘you’ when you use the preposition wrth, so is not properly interchangeable with i.

Hope that helps :slight_smile:

Just to have a stab at answering this…one thing that tripped (OK, trips) me up all the time was that Welsh changes the meaning of a lot of verbs totally depending on the following word. So “dweud” = to say, but “dweud wrth” = to tell. “Dod” is to come, “dod â” is to bring. So no, “i” and “wrth” aren’t interchangeable as it quite likely will change the meaning of what you are saying.

I think what you’ve heard is “i chdi”. “i” often translates as “to”, but not always, so there are lots of cases when you”ll hear (verb) i chdi. Actually with “gofyn” it would normally be “i” something, so “Dw i’n gofyn i chdi” = I am asking you. I can’t immediately think when I would say “gofyn wrth” but I’m sure someone will come up with an example.

Chdi and ti are interchangeable, Ti is the standard form (ie taught in textbooks) but chdi is used a lot, particularly in the north. So gofyn i ti = gofyn i chdi.

If you are using a verb that needs “wrth” for the meaning you want (like dweud wrth) then you’ve got the additional joy that wrth changes if you use it with a pronoun. With ti, or chdi, wrth becomes wrthat, technically, but since no-one can actually say “wrthat chdi” I think you’ll hear something like “wrthachdi”, or “wrthochdi”. If it was a “chi” situation talking to more than one person, it’s “wrthoch chi”.

At least, I think that’s how it works!


Week 13 asked
He’d better ask you = well iddo fo gofyn wrthot ti
the young man had better help you = well y dyn ifanc helpu echdi

The construction of each phrase appears the same but the Welsh for ‘you’ is different.

I am having a blank here !!

Regards Ifor

If you say “wrtho’ chdi” instead of “wrthot ti”, that’s fine - they both mean the same, just a dialectal difference.
And if you said “helpu ti” instead of “helpu chdi”, that’s also fine, again just dialectal difference.
The best tip is to use whichever you hear around you most - in some areas you will hear a lot of chdi and in other areas almost always ti. The course introduces you to both so that you’re aware of them, (so you won’t get thrown suddenly in actual conversations) but the choice of which to use is purely preference.

Those of us who use/used the southern course will probably never say chdi - it’ll be ti every time. I get the impression that the choice of which to use falls more to what sounds nice / feels nice to the speaker. (There is something very satisfying about saying “i chdi” - it has such a cosy feel - but it’s not what I would produce spontaneously myself.)

just one last go - if CHDI and TI are interchangeable when in my last example ‘better ask you’ = ‘gofyn wrthot ti’ but ‘better help you’ = ‘helpu echdi’ — why not ‘helpu wrthot echdi’.
it was the incusion of ‘wrthot’ or not that was throwing me.
Thanks Ifor

Thank you for that … I am still in question mode with SSIW.
You state that folk would not say ‘cofyn wrthot ti’ but that was used in Lesson 12 for ‘better ask you’.
However ’ better help you’ was ‘helpu echdi’ ---- why no wrthot used there before echdi or the reverse why use wrthot after cofyn and before ti.
My head hurts but thanks

helpu is not one of the verbs followed by wrth, but gofyn is, so that’s why it’s gofyn wrthot ti / gofyn wrtho’ chdi, but it’s helpu ti / helpu chdi.
It’s the verb that dictates the use of wrth, not the ti/chdi, so whichever personal pronoun you use, it still holds true - gofyn wrthaf i but helpu fi, gofyn wrthyn nhw but helpu nhw.

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Thanks that answers it.
However I have learnt loads from the replies.
Have a peaceful Eastet


Glad we got there in the end!

It’s also a little confusing, because Level 1 of SSIW (northern) uses gofyn wrthot ti etc, but when you get to Level 2, they drop that in favour of gofyn i ti. There’s an old thread on this forum which suggests that gofyn i is more ‘correct’, but gofyn wrth is common in speech: Gofyn i or gofyn wrth or both.

In general, prepositions (such as wrth and i) are a difficulty in every language and you’ve just got to learn them.

For example, the French ‘listen the radio’, in English we ‘listen to the radio’ and in Welsh, we 'listen on the radio… (gwrando ar Radio Cymru).

Welsh just happens to use wrth with dweud, wrth or i with gofyn and nothing with helpu and that’s the way it goes – you do start to get used to which to use after a while, but if you forget, people will still know what you mean.

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Ive looked at North & South. For Gofyn & Dweud they are opposite as North does dweud i ti/gofyn wrythot ti & South the other way.