I really think all these sort of questions about the language are extremely useful to smooth our understanding.
I think Mike is on the money with his above explanation.
One little addition is i suspect the ‘Medru’ gets an ‘f’ at the start. (mutation).
because originally the phrase would have been ‘mi fedra i ddim’ (the mi causing the mutation)
But its short form so the ‘mi’ has been dropped.
Cheers J.P. (always happy to be corrected).
Bendigedig!
Exactly what I was hoping for in both responses.
Diolch, diolch, diolch!
Agree! I think there is also a more in depth grammatical feature that Welsh and English share here (and has been used as an argument that English has inherited a lot of Welsh syntax), namely the use of constructs such as “I am …/Dw i’n …” for example “I am buying a car/Dw i’n prynu car” versus “I buy a car/Prynaf gar” - the former expresses a sense of duration, whereas the latter does not - at least that’s how experience it. In addition, the short forms in Welsh also denote a sense of future - “fedra i ddim/I won’t be able to”.
The more “in depth grammatical reason” I was referring to was actually a durative reason. In other words, wondering if we were being taught the durative form of “I can’t” in one of the lessons. Quite an interesting point you make here with the Cymraeg influence on English in this context.
Being rather new to the Forum I am unsure if this has been discussed, but the word *ffenest jumped out at me as being blatantly influenced/incorporated from German (Angles and Saxons and such). And while English incorporated the “fenst” in a word like defenestrate, the language uses window instead.
Just one of my novice level observations that I found quite interesting and left me wondering how/why this happened as the language evolved over the centuries.
“Ffenest®” is considered to be one of the very many words of Latin origin in Welsh, some going back to when the Romans were in Wales; I tend to think that English (defenestrate), Dutch (venster), German (Fenster), French (fenestre), etc. have likewise been influenced by Latin at some stage.
There is an awful lot of Latin in Cymraeg!! Comes of them being in charge for nearly 400 years!! The Saxons presumably used ‘wind door’!!! I suspect English got fenestration from Norman French!! In fact, most of the Latin in English probably comes that way, Yes? No?
p.s. We must be careful not to say, “We used Latin for things we hadn’t invented when the Roams came”, because I have a notion there are some words for things we certainly did have!!
What doesn’t come from Anglo-Saxon/Old English (i.e. of Germanic origin), Latin, or French in English probably comes from Norse/Viking influences.
I just loooked up “window” in Danish, via dict.cc:
http://enda.dict.cc/?s=window
Result: “vindue”.
However, in Swedish, it’s “fönster”. http://ensv.dict.cc/?s=window
Yet again, in Norwegian, it’s “vindu”. - http://enno.dict.cc/?s=window
So, my guess is, “window” / “vindu” / “vindue” came from a Norse / Nordic root.
But a lot of words in the modern Scandinavian languages have Germanic origins (rather than specifically Norse), and it looks as though Swedish has gone the Germanic route for “fönster”, although as Louis has pointed out re: “ffenestr”, it must also be related to Latin (and indirectly, to French and even Welsh in this respect).
(Norway was under the control of Denmark for a long time, and its language was very strongly influenced by Danish, so much so that the written languages are very close, at least regarding what is called “Bokmål”. There was a movement to try to (re-)introduce a more “Nordic” Norwegian language after Norway became independent from Denmark, and this is called “Nynorsk” (Neo-Norwegian). I have read that this only really affects the written language, but I have read that it might affect the spoken language as well, and I’m not 100% sure of the situation.
Anyway, it is not surprising that the Norwegian ( Bokmål) and Danish words for “window” are very similar).
I think the monasteries providing education in Latin would also have had influence, before or independent of the Normans. At least, that’ how many Latin words ended up in Dutch.
Ive just reached the end of lesson 6 (a, b & bonus) & im loving course 1. Can I ask about the daily practice sessions. Are there quite a few different ones? Do people find they do use them on a daily basis and how much do they enhance their learning experience? Thanks, Clairx
Big thanks to Louis and Henddraig for the explanation of “San Steffan”. Fascinating!
D
I live in North Wales and know alot of people whose first language is welsh. I’ve just got to the end of the lesson 6’s in course 1 and was wondering do you cover chi as well as ti at some stage in the courses as I can tell you for a fact there are an awful lot of people around here who look daggers at you if you use ti to an elder still even though all of the younger generations round here only use ti these days. Please also advise on the daily exercises (see previous quick question 210). Thanks, Clairx
I am actually very glad to hear that, fach!! Oh, not because I like being ‘chi’ to virtually everyone now, based on age, but because there are times when I find modern informality a bit jarring, notably when very young nurses use my given name, especially to call me from a waiting room!!! Miss, Mrs and Mr. are titles my generation was raised to use!!!
It’s introduced in Lesson 18.
Troy, p. 207 onwards http://www.hildegard.tristram.de/media/tristram_manchester_30-07-07.pdf
Read the entirety. Interesting and enlightening. Thanks for sharing.
Trying out your welsh before chi is introduced in the part of north wales I live in anyway & I suspect other areas is decidedly dicey & offensive to alot of people unless you only plan on speaking to people younger than you. @Aran - you mentioned you are after course feedback - maybe the concept of chi and ti should be introduced pre lesson 6 (or whatever challenge equivalent) where you encourage people to go out and use it as i can tell you for a fact that there is an awful lot of strong feeling on the subject in this area.
Hi Clair. Aside from the fact that being a somewhat ‘antagonistic?’ Aussie, my generation here basically rejects calling people sir, madam etc. Personally I would push on with what you’ve learnt, and if anybody wants to get ‘prickly’ about it, politely remind them you are only just learning.
Could turn into a good opportunity to practise a different angle of discussion. ‘Sorry you are upset, I am only learning and doing my best.’
Best of luck either way, Mick
I certainly don’t want anyone to ‘call me Madam’!!! And I can see that using, say, ‘Marie Jones’ in a waiting room instead of ‘Mrs Jones’ prevents confusion, unless there are two Marie Joneses!! Having a very unusual name makes it easy for me to forget the need to be as non-confusing as possible, but adding Miss or Mrs. or Mr. in front would be polite, if you know the person is not a child!! Also, I would expect to be ‘chi’ to anyone obviously younger than me (most people!), although I would say, “Dw’i ‘ti’ i ti!” if meeting a potential friend rather than, say, a nurse. I may well tell a nurse to use ‘ti’ and call me ‘Jackie’ when I get to know them better!
The approach you’ve suggested is one I adopt with my older friends - I have explained I have only learnt the more casual methods of address so far but it clearly still grates with them. They pull faces as if I had run my nails down a blackboard! But at the same time as actively discouraging me from opening my mouth, they also complain that not enough people try to learn welsh! - hows a girl to win! - let me assure you it is not a small minority of people who carry these views round here! The real trouble is with such strong feelings about chi and ti and all the other unspoken rules is when it comes to matters of business - an ill placed s’mae or ti could potentially do alot of damage! We could do with a whole lesson on the unspoken rules of welsh - I’m sure they would take a whole lesson to cover!