It’s a very difficult situation, and one in which we historically tend in the direction of accepting - which is a large part of why language loss continues in Wales.
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On my course last week were a couple of higher-education lecturers from Gwynedd, and we were discussing the issue of switching to English. They were saying that some of the classes only had one student who didn’t understand Welsh but they felt they needed to speak in English for that person’s benefit. I suggested they said things in Welsh first, with an English translation to follow - but of course that’s so much more work for them. They were pretty unhappy about the situation though.
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Honestly, all I can suggest is that people moving to those areas be told up front, before they actually move, that they will be expected to learn the language if they don’t already speak it, and that if they don’t, they simply won’t be able to take part in activities where everybody speaks Welsh.
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And this is what happens when that stance is taken:
but maybe things will move forward?
The sheer anti-welsh language bile in some of the comments for these articles highlights some of the issues that are faced. There are a small group of very vocal people who make it their life’s work to constantly attack the language - they regularly post anti Welsh language posts everywhere on the net - anything posted on a news website or on the BBC gets a perverse anti Welsh language comment. They even target places like mumsnet and all the rest, putting out a lot of negative posts slamming Welsh medium education etc. These people don’t debate - they just throw out fictitious facts and sling mud at anything to do with the language and Welsh people in general.
This is something that has always been there and it defies any logic
I think these are only a very small group of very active people, but they are completely driven by some obscure hatred of the langauge and of Wales. Many of them also tend to live in the Welsh speaking heartlands which is bizaare to say the least.
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One of those comments included the statement “I was born in England …but now my place of birth is Wales…”. So logic clearly doesn’t enter into it!
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Yeah - I remember that story. I’m not sure what went on there, to tell the truth - it’s quite hard to tell from the Post’s reporting.
But I do think that if the rights of a Welsh speaker in, say, Hwylffordd are to be maintained then morally the rights of an English speaker in, say, Caernarfon should be as well. I’m not sure about spoken communication - that’s far harder to organise. But I think written publications from public bodies being bilingual is important.
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Personally - I don’t think equal treatment is correct. It seems fair to be balanced, but it’s not. English is in a fundamentally stronger position for so many reasons and Welsh needs significant preference. If you always try to be balanced then Welsh will always lose out. Give an inch and someone out there will take the proverbial mile.
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The latter is already the case - the former, not.
Getting the balance right between ‘equal’ and ‘fair’ can be tricky - I’d certainly be entirely comfortable with a process in Gwynedd (for example) that works like some of the layers of local government in Basque Country, where documents are provided in Basque as the norm, but with copies available in Spanish on request.
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Can’t disagree with this, and there’s nothing worse than the howls of protest from people with privilege crying ‘oppression’ when they’re treated just like everyone else. But I actually think it’s counterproductive.
For example, whatever you think about the US invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 under the pretext of the ‘war on terror’ (and you can be sure that I have Opinions on that…) one thing it did was introduce a new reason to bomb/oppress/invade other people - all you need do is label them ‘terrorists’ and hey presto! it’s justified. (See Russia in the Ukraine, Israel in Gaza, for example.)
So whatever is done on behalf of majority Welsh that disadvantages minority English you can be sure will be leapt on by the monoglots and used to defend the disadvantaging of minority Welsh in other, majority-English areas.
In this particular case, it really isn’t clear what was and wasn’t done from the reporting - so it’s entirely possible that these were simply trouble-makers and that the council really didn’t have a case to answer.
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Absolutely.
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I totally agree with @sarapeacock. While the English language is official in Wales, the Ombudsman;s ruling will be valid. To be fair, in places like Newport, Monmouth etc. it wouldd be crazy for English not to have legal status!!
I think when it comes to papers, the rule should be that they must be available in both languages and that authorities should try to make them available in other languages used by a number of local people. (This for areas where a lot of refugees have been housed).
For meetings, I think the rule should be that simultaneous translation being so costly, either language should be used, the speaker to choose. If anyone cannot understand, a brief precis of what was said is provided by someone who volunteers in advance. If a new person arrived in a place where all was in Welsh, that person should be expected to learn the language as fast as they can, just as they would in France. Can you imagine a council in France running things in English for a few incomers???
There is a difference between the council refusing to provide documents in English (one of the two official languages of Wales) and the Mothers’ Union or WI or the local church refusing to switch to speaking English during meetings. One of those things is annoying - my ability to read Welsh isn’t particularly good, so I wouldn’t be particularly happy with a lack of English language documents from a government body - but the other is “We speak Welsh in this community; we’re happy to help you learn, but we expect you to make the effort. Just like you would expect somebody moving into an English speaking community to make the effort to learn to speak English.”
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I know at least one local council in France, where the Marie is from Cardiff and speaks very poor French and English is the main spoken language in meetings. The same thing happens everywhere - the English language just dwarfs out everything else - even in countries with strong languages like France. We can leave things run their natural course around the world and we will end up with half a dozen languages, which will condense down eventually to two or three. This is where allowing things to just happen and following very rational and fair logic ultimately takes you.
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Goodness; I wonder how that came about? It sounds like an unusual situation.
No i bet it is quite common in places like the dordogne - the one I know is in the Charente. They can have very small communes, which are like parish councils, but with more power and a Marie, who can sanction lots of things - planning etc. Anyone who lives in the area can apply to be the Marie - Command of French is not a pre-requisite…
My understanding is that it was essentially a matter of translation being available on request, but that there were some personality clashes that muddled the waters rather…
Cynwyd council may have dug their heels in, but my local council in an area where there are 40% welsh speakers and half of the council members can speak Welsh has decided on cost grounds not to do Welsh translations. I think if they had a request they might be legally obliged to do so, but no-one will put in a request because they wouldn’t want to be seen as awkward or militant. So I am living somewhere, where everyone is reasonable and there are no conflicts (something we pride ourselves on), but in 30 years there won’t be a Welsh language community here. In Cynwyd I suspect there might be, although they are at risk and just on the limits of community language viability at 72% - this sounds high, but if 40-50 people move to the village who don’t speak welsh and it drops to 50% then you won’t here the languages on the street very much and the council will do all of its business solely in English, without a whisper of a complaint.
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It would be a very British thing to let a language die out of politeness, wouldn’t it?!
Thing is, I think it depends on your definition of ‘reasonable’. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want to have Welsh versions of documents from a council in Wales, especially one with such a high proportion of Welsh speakers. And I would have thought most reasonable non-Welsh-speakers would agree with that principle.
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That sounds about par for the course to me.
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There is a time and a financial aspect to translating and we can’t deny that - also most people aren’;t really that bothered about council minutes. I’m not at all militant and no-one I know in the area is, which is a nice thing and you shouldn’t need to be. This is what dissapointed me about Cynwyd really - there was something good there that most of us learning a language would relish. The real opportunity and need to learn a language in order to participate in something - what more motivation could you get to learn to speak the language, knowing that there is a bit of positive pressure on you to do it.
I got really stubborn once in France. I was in Cognac (which is quite an anglicised part of France) and my French was coming along quite nicely and I was pretty confident. I went into the bank and the person the other side of the counter answered everything I said to him in English. I didn’t want that and just carried on in the best French I could muster. It must have been bizaare really - he was refusing to speak French and I was refusing to speak English. Obviously, this is not the normal experience you get in France - I also love it when people pretend they can’t speak English, but you get that impression that they can - it is basically saying have a go at speaking my language you pil…ck, however good you are. I never find that rude and it often happens in the friendliest of ways that are just funny - it immediately takes off the pressure in trying to speak the language, because you simply have to do it.
We will never be in that position in Wales unfortunately, because speaking Welsh is apparently obstructive or rude!?, but the complainers against Cynwyd council have taken away one little reason or opportunity that was on offer for people to have to develop skills in another language.
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