Stori'r Iaith and non-resident Welsh speakers

Welsh General / Questions
#1

I’m currently working my way through Stori’r Iaith and a recurring theme (as it often is) is how to ensure that the language continues to thrive. A particular concern is the decline of the language in traditionally Welsh-speaking areas.

There is a great deal of discourse on how to ensure the future of the language and most of it boils down to encouraging people to use Welsh as much as possible in their everyday lives.

Now, many SSiWers, including me, don’t live in Wales so I have a couple of questions about our role in supporting the language.

Firstly, what impact does creating new Welsh speakers outside Wales have on the language as a whole, and as it’s spoken in Wales?

Secondly, what can we do, individually or collectively, to contribute to the flourishing of the Welsh language?

It’s quite a weighty topic, I know, but if anyone has any insights, I’d be fascinated to hear them.

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#2

I would say the main thing is that it raises awareness of the language and the culture. Having people outside Wales tune in to Welsh language TV and radio and engage in online content, and buying Welsh language music, books, and other products is important to the growth and economies of those services. It also boosts tourism of course (what learner doesn’t want to come and experience Welsh ‘in the wild’?!!).

See above! No, seriously, do engage with Welsh media - if there’s a programme you particularly enjoy, write in and say so. Support Welsh language artists, musicians, authors not just by buying their work but by seeing if you can get to gigs, book signings and exhibitions (maybe even inviting them to play/talk/exhibit in your area if that’s within your scope). Visit the Eisteddfod and other festivals if you can. And then tell all your non-Welsh speaking friends how great it all is and how much fun this ‘parallel world’ has turned out to be.

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#3

One starting point to look at this could be the Welsh Government’s “Cymraeg 2050” strategy, which has a section on the role the language has to play in our relationship with the outside world. (That particular section begins on p.67, but the whole document is interesting…)

There’s another line of thought around our place in an increasingly digitalised and online world - the more we are ruled by algorithms, the less well a minority language will fare. The more we can do to help Welsh become more “present” in the digital world (wherever we are in the real world), the easier it will be for people to come across the language in digital spaces online. (It’s a massively uphill battle when compared to the language giants such as English.)

I also think there’s a role for “language allies” (I did some academic work on this, as it happens…) Having people all over the world supporting and advocating for the language is a great thing. I think SSiW in particular has had a transformative effect here. You’ll notice that any stories on news outlets or on social media platforms about people from outside Wales learning and using the language get very high levels of interest (and are strongly supported by Welsh speakers here).

There will be plenty of other thoughts, I’m sure, but just a few to get you started!

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#4

It’s not just SSIW - if you look at the makeup of a lot of Dysgu Cymraeg on line (and residential) courses, you’ll see a lot are from outside Wales. Without them, I suspect quite a few courses just wouldn’t happen.

Personally, I’m still not convinced that some in the Welsh language movement (whatever that is) have really accepted that the world has changed. Welsh culture doesn’t only exist in draughty grey chapels in remote villages or in the common rooms of Neuadd Pantycelyn; it has, quite suddenly, become very possible for anyone, anywhere to take an active part in using the Welsh language and participating in Welsh language activities. The converse is also true: that remote village probably has fast internet and access to a far wider range of media and material than before.

Despite this, I do get the feeling sometimes that there is still a difference of view as to the future direction of the language. It seems as though it’s seen by some people as more important when someone in an existing Welsh speaking community learns Welsh than it is when the learner is in a non-Welsh speaking area of Wales, or outside Wales altogether. To my mind, this parallels the concern about young people moving away, that they will inevitably be “lost” to the language. Essentially, it is a defensive position, retrenching back to the heartlands of Welsh in places like Llŷn, Môn and - just maybe - Sir Gar. It is not a strategy for growth, in my view, unless you want to put watchtowers on Offa’s Dyke.

On the other hand what seems to be happening at the same time, is a feeling that Welsh should stop thinking of itself as a language of particular communities or places, recognise that it isn’t ever going to be used to the exclusion of other languages, and reach outward. Welsh has a fantastic depth to it, it rewards study many times over, and it “counts” however and wherever someone chooses to engage with the language. That includes people who have left Wales, who have never lived there and however they have come into contact with the language. In my view, that’s the only way forward. And that means that learners outside Wales contribute in two ways: yes, it raises awareness of and support for the language more widely, but they are just as able to consume and contribute to Welsh culture, discussions, music, education or whatever as the person in the draughty chapel in Llareggub. And the more people who do, the stronger those activities will become.

And maybe, just maybe, the idea that one Welsh speaker counts more than another will disappear.

In the early days of the internet, there was a cartoon of two dogs messaging each other with the caption “on the internet, no-one knows you’re a dog.” Perhaps our version of that should be “on the internet, no-one knows you’re a gog”?

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#5

Some thoughtful and insightful replies so far, thank you.
Funny you should mention Neuadd Pantycelyn @phil-23 - I lived there my first year at university and didn’t learn a single word of Welsh. Never been to Llareggub but I have visited Llamedos a few times.

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#6

While one Welsh speaker absolutely doesn’t matter more than another, Welsh communities do matter more. There are more Welsh speakers in Cardiff than in Ceredigion, but the rapid change of daily life on the street in, say, Aberteifi from Welsh to English is of enormous concern to language planners. For a language to live, people have to speak it. And to do that people need to be in a situation where there are other Welsh speakers for them to interact with. Only certain people are going to make the effort to go out of their way in order do that (I count just about everybody here in that group!) Others will just stop using their Welsh and use English instead, because they just want to go about their daily lives and get on with doing whatever it is makes them happy and fulfilled in their life.

So the biggest threat to the future of the language at the moment (according to the experts I talk to for my job, which is all about preserving and promoting the Welsh language) is the fact that our “heartlands” are being anglicised. That’s mainly to do with the percentage being diluted, but that is then leading to people who can speak Welsh not speaking Welsh. Once the heartlands have gone, the language will have no chance of survival in the long term. Sorry to sound a negative note in a place that’s usually all about focusing on the positive, but it’s a really important part of the jigsaw.

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#7

Thanks to @siaronjames and @sara-peacock-1 for some great advice. I’d already dipped my toe into Welsh-language media and culture but, since I first posted this topic, I’ve started learning to read Welsh, subscribed to Lingo Newydd and started posting on Mastodon (in Welsh and English).

I didn’t think I was ready but I’ve taken the plunge. When we talk about Welsh speakers using their Welsh as much as possible, it’s easy to assume that means fluent Welsh speakers but we all have a part to play.

Lack of confidence can be one of the biggest barriers to learning a language and to that language thriving. I’ve heard people say that using Welsh for the first time is scary. For me, thinking about it was a bit scary but doing it wasn’t scary at all.

So I’d echo something that is said often by SSiWers - whatever level you’re you’re at, use your Welsh as much as possible and in as many ways as possible. You’ll learn more quickly and you’ll be doing your part to help the language thrive.

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#8

You’ve absolutely hit the nail on the head (several times) there.

The concept of “ready” is what I like to think of as the “rainbow’s end” of language learning. Waiting until you’re ‘ready’ is an unreachable goal because those goalposts will, just like the end of the rainbow, keep moving. Even if you’ve only learnt to say “Bore da” or “diolch”, you’re ready to use those :slight_smile:

Yep, overthinking is definitely a confidence killer. And whilst not all ‘first encounters’ might go as well as we’d wish them to, just knowing you’ve taken that first step - whatever the reaction - can be a huge boost, whether that’s “phew, that wasn’t so bad” or “well, the only way is up!” :smiley:

Well done on jumping in, you’re well on your way now!

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#9

Haia - welais i chdi yno :waves in toot.wales:

For me, I think the issue is/was the fact that every native Welsh speaker in Britain above the age of, say, 7 (and in the absence of dementia etc.) is going to be more fluently bilingual in English than me. (I’m not saying that their English is uniformly as good as their Welsh for everything, or that they wouldn’t prefer to stick to Welsh - just that their English is better than my Welsh.)

That isn’t the case if I go to, say, France, where people with frankly rudimentary English will sometimes insist on “helping” me when it’s plain to me that my French is better than their English. But here in Oxford, the mother of one of my kids’ friends is mamiaith, and we’ll often have a brief exchange in Welsh if we bump into each other: the last time, I stumbled through some small-talk about how we’d enjoyed a school play that my child had been in, whereupon said child came out of the house, and the mum switched in English to “Oh, you really stole the show! I’ve never seen the part acted with such aplomb!” I think I can be forgiven for not knowing how to say “aplomb” in Welsh, but it made an impression on me in terms of, well, there’s fluency, and then there’s fluency.

But that isn’t really the point. Yes, it means that my conversations with native, or really fluent Welsh speakers sometimes feel a bit like some complicated social game, whereby we agree to communicate with each other less effectively for the sake of a higher purpose; and it means that, as learners, we can feel hamstrung by the thought that native or more fluent speakers will therefore be judging us for all the dreadful mistakes we make (they probably aren’t). But it leaves out of account the times when native speakers have thanked me profusely for bothering to learn, bothering to try: I try to disown any thanks, on the basis that French people don’t thank me for bothering to speak French, but the “higher purpose” bit of the game is still true, and learners’ efforts are often genuinely, genuinely appreciated. In my limited experience, you are (one is) much more likely to get thanked and encouraged than judged and corrected.

…and that’s the “higher purpose”; but you’re right about learning more quickly, too.

ETA: According to Geiriadur yr Academi, it’s hunanfeddiant :laughing:

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#10

:elephant:
What’s your handle on toot.wales? I had a quick look but couldn’t find you.

#11

@tortipede@toot.wales, but I lurk & boost more than I actually post, I’m afraid.

#12

I’ve done more than my fair share of lurking on social media and various forums.

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#13

I know Siaron has already picked this sentence out, but I wanted to as well. Yes! This!

And this:

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#14

I have had to come to terms with the fact that my Welsh will never, ever be as good as my English. I had 45 years’ head start with English, for one, and I went on to develop my skills to a high level (I was a professional editor).

But I now work through the medium of Welsh, and my Welsh is good enough for what I do. That’s the important thing.

And that works on every level. Want to go to a cafe and have a cup of tea and talk about your day? Your Welsh is good enough for that! I love your point about the “higher purpose”. That chat about your day over a cup of tea is helping to keep the Welsh language alive! What a wonderful thing to do :slight_smile:

You genuinely learn something new every day here.

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#15

Speaking of just taking the plunge any chance we get, even if we’re probably not really ready…

I guess it might be worth sharing this story:

this summer a Welsh class mate of mine from Australia, Jen, and I decided to go to the Eisteddfod.
On the way, one morning, she got offered a lift. In the car there was also Eleri Siôn (the presenter, reporting every day from the Maes).
After hearing our story, Eleri invited her to do an interview, and Jen sent me a message asking me to join her.

Basically we walked out of the rain into the Pavilion backstage. Just time to take our rainproof jacket hood off and get a lovely, warm, but quick welcome from the staff and… 3 minutes later we were answering questions in Welsh in front of a camera! :scream: :joy:

I didn’t have the chance to see it on the TV, but from that evening I started getting messages from friends, and then having several random people stopping me and congratulating after having seen me on the telly/Facebook/Instagram/Tiktok.

Turned out that S4C had also unleashed a very short (and cleverly edited - @sara-peacock-1 might know more about how these things work) clip from our interview on social medias with the title:

"Croeso i Gymru | benvenuti in Galles | Welcome to Wales :wales:
Mae dysgwyr Cymraeg ym mhob cwr o’r byd! "

Well, speaking for myself, my treigladau and hair were equally disastrous :sweat_smile: …but to my surprise, with now almost 8500 likes and dozens of positive comments I have to assume that quite a few people enjoyed it anyway. :open_mouth: :open_mouth: :open_mouth:

Hopefully a few of them will start learning the language, or using it more in their daily life, or even just feel a little more proud of it. :orange_heart:
And of course hopefully some will also start listening to Datblygu…ha! :grin: :v:

This not for self-promotion, just to mean that am aware that us non-residents can’t really expect to make a huge difference on how much Welsh is spoken in the Welsh communities every day.
But maybe the small things we do can have more of an impact than we can imagine, and then even more worth going for it!

p.s. oh I had actually mentioned SSiW, but didn’t make it into the clip. :woman_shrugging:

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#16

I was so pleased to see your interview being used like that, and it did indeed get a really positive reaction. These are exactly the sorts of messages we want to be sharing with people to get them to join in with us in our Welsh adventure :slight_smile:

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#17

That’s amazing. Were you there on the Monday? I’m just guessing because I know it rained that day.

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#18

No, on Monday I was travelling from Italy… It just happened to also rain on Thursday and Saturday!

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#19

And it’s not just Welsh.
Here’s a lovely film about what some Sami people are doing to recover their language from years of suppression, and why it matters.

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#20

Talk is cheap, literally. Only one person ever dictated why? How? and when i spoke Irish or Cymraeg and that was me. And i decided to speak immediately. We are learning like children so do what children do and just speak. Age is of little importance i was 38 when armed with only two words i started to learn Irish, every day, even if it was only very little. I guess that there were many stages i thought ill never conquer this, but now i teach Irish and have little to no trouble switching between Irish and English. Then around 20 years later i started Cymraeg 3 years ago and again from the start even though i live in Ireland and have never been to Wales i speak Cymraeg regularly every week on zoom sessions, sometimes as many as 6 (hours). So yeah in learning both i was never in an Irish/Welsh speaking environment. I did my best to recreate one. The facilities to read, watch, listen, speak Cymraeg is phenomenal. Primarily SSIW. But also duolingo ( although not for me, im on my phone enough lol) youtube, Facebook, WhatsApp, messenger etc. I’ve been part of a WhatsApp group with people i met on SSIW, a few years now. And we chat and write both English and Cymraeg daily, we also have a reading group where we all read the same book and record and post it daily. Also meet on a Saturday morning and practice. I have always seen learning a language in terms of ‘air flying miles’
Every single little thing you do adds to your total mileage and final destination, fluency. Keep it varied and enjoyable. When its not enjoyable you start to falter and question it. Probably stop and start. Or give up. I cannot recommend the zoom sessions highly enough. Especially for those outside of Wales or even who live in Wales yet don’t have speaking opportunities. O hope this didn’t come across as criticism or condensation. Its really just my experience and tuppence worth.
Diolch :grinning:

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