Short Form and Sai'n etc

This is gonna be a long one, fair warning and apologies in advance :joy:

So over levels 1-3 (south) Iā€™ve got pretty comfortable with using ā€˜galla iā€™ instead of ā€˜dwiā€™n galluā€™ etc. for ā€œI canā€, but I was just wondering what the conjugation is for short form present tense (and maybe what some common irregulars are) in general.

I was also wondering how common short form is in spoken Welsh and if there is an informal/formal distinction. Also is it a case of modals/auxiliary verbs being short form in the present but other verbs using long form? I live in the south east if that changes the answer from the south west at all. Iā€™ve been getting a lot of conflicting answers from native speakers not in my area (havenā€™t found any in my area) and mates who studied Welsh to GCSE who are in my area :ā€™)

Thirdly conjugation tables for ā€œsaiā€™n/so feā€™nā€ type present negative conjugation are proving hard to find. If anyone could type out that list Iā€™d be super grateful. I know most (though not all) of them but am unsure about spelling for quite a few. Is the ā€œhiā€ equivalent of so feā€™n (so hiā€™n?) just not really used (hence the dyw hi ddim teaching)? Also is there a ā€œthe plural noun isnā€™tā€ ā€˜soā€™ equivalent? e.g. ā€œThe children donā€™t wantā€ being something like ā€œsoā€™r plant yn moynā€?

I realise SSiW doesnā€™t really like using tables and lists, so I understand if this is the wrong place to be asking these questions^. :slight_smile: But Iā€™ve been scouring PDFs for hours and have bugged the native Welsh speakers and other Welsh learners I know over a couple of other nit-picky grammar questions too much recently already I think :smiley:

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I find short form is especially common in the south. Itā€™s very rare that Iā€™ll hear someone say ā€œWnes i ddweudā€ (I said) down south. Iā€™ll tend to hear ā€œdwedais Iā€ a lot more.

Up north itā€™s a bit less like that though. Although youā€™ll still hear a lot of short form.


Saiā€™n is a bit hard to find any documentation on because itā€™s something that I believe is really limited to spoken Welsh only (and sometimes used in extremely informal written settings Twitter, Texting etc)

ā€¦ and even then itā€™s generally only used down south - and not by everyone really. I use it loads though.

Does this help?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/catchphrase/ysbyty_brynaber/lessons/language/lang17.shtml
(At bottom of page)

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Just for reference though (excuse spelling if any errors)

Sa iā€™n - Iā€™m not.
So fe - Heā€™s not.
So hi - sheā€™s not.
So Ti - youā€™re not (singular)
So chi - youā€™re not (plural or respectful)
So ni - we are not
So nhw - theyā€™re not.

The single ā€˜soā€™ can be used to describe anything that doesnā€™t fall into the above categories. I.e

Soā€™r cath hoffi cig - the cat doesnā€™t like meat.
Soā€™r pĆŖl-droed yn cwpla eto - the football isnā€™t finishing yet.
Soā€™r Dyn yn mynd iā€™r Mwnt - the man isnā€™t going to Mwnt.

Hope this helps also.

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I dont think you can put moyn at the end of that though. As that is a different constructon. I think you need to say The children dont wantā€¦(dont have a need on them).

Otherwise it sounds like a wrong way of saying its not the children that want.

Its in an early forum post but I cant find it now :frowning:
@Garethrking explained it.

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My understanding is that the present tense short form (e.g. ā€œgalla iā€) is also used for the future.

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Paging @Iestyn :slight_smile:

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Thank you so much!! That document is great too, made sure to favourite for future reference :grin:

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Ah I see, thanks for letting me know! Iā€™ll search up that other post in a bit and link if I find it :slight_smile:

Oooh that would explain why I canā€™t find anything on short form present specifically, ta muchly :smiley:

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Thank youuu! :smile:

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:slight_smile:

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Plural nouns take singular verb in Welsh, @sarahhatch1235 - so your example

soā€™r plant yn moyn the children donā€™t want

is absolutely correct.

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Thanks for clearing that up! :slight_smile: What textbook is that youā€™re using in the photo by the way? It has quite a few forms Iā€™m struggling to find documented online and I might look into getting it for grammar in general :slight_smile:

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Sorry for the confusion

Iā€™ll save @garethrkingā€™s modesty by jumping in first to let you know itā€™s one that he wrote. Seriously: he rather got up the nose of some people by doing a grammar of Welsh as she is spoke, rather than as she ā€˜oughtā€™ to be. There are also various workbooks etc. to accompany it :slight_smile:

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Youā€™re a gentleman, @RichardBuck ! :slight_smile:

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Thanks all the same for helping me out :slight_smile: Would never have found out about all of this otherwise^ :grinning:

Oh my gosh thatā€™s incredible! As someone who loves their grammar tables but also wants to speak genuine colloquial Welsh as taught on SSiW, youā€™re a life-saver!! I wish I could say I was surprised about the prescriptivist reaction though :ā€™)

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I know Iā€™m late to the party, but thank you so much for this. NOW it makes sense! I couldnā€™t work out why the ā€œddimā€ was missing :slight_smile:

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Shmae pawb.

Wiā€™n gobeithio popeth yn iawn.

Mae cwestiwn 'da fi am ā€œsa i / smo fi / simo iā€ etc, os gwelwch yn dda.

Wiā€™n gwbod - sa i, is, dw i ddim. (As above)

Ond,

Sa i wedi eich gweld am sbel.
Smo fi wedi eich gweld am sbel.
Simo i wedi eich gweld am sbel.

Dw i ddim wedi eich gweld am sbel. I think this means "I havenā€™t seen you in agesā€™

Are the above Southern usages (and variations) correctly used in this situation and gramatically correct?

Sorry for the poor Wenglish, but Iā€™m trying to use more Welsh in my everyday communications.

Diolch yn fawr am eich helpu i gyd.