SaySomethingin Irish (Beta)

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The Beta version of the Irish course for English speakers has been released. See what you think and post any comments/queries here!

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So far just did a few reps just to check it out. As I already speak Scottish Gaelic to a conversational level, it will be interesting to see how much that helps with the Irish Gaelic. Won’t find out for a while as I am focusing on Italian at the moment. I am happy that Aran isn’t introducing all the new vocabulary. No offence Aran, it is just that when my brain hears Aran’s voice I will want to respond in Italian. As originally happened when I started Italian; I wanted to respond to the prompts with Welsh. Thankfully, that has faded though.

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I’m just enjoying trying out the Irish beta demo and the Irish beta - as variously possible from English and from Welsh. Thank you so much for all the commitment and hard work involved!

I had long been intrigued as to which “I want” option you’d have gone for, and was a bit surprised by “ba mhaith liom” on the demo. As I progressed to beta proper I was pleased to get practice with “tĂĄ mĂ© ag iarraidh” and as I swap between the three experiences two via English, one via Welsh, it adds a fun wee diversion to keep being aware which course I am on/whether I’m “would liking” or, less diffidently, “in pursuit of”, lol. [Btw, quibble here: I think I was taught that negating “ba mhaith” gives “*nior mhaith” rather than use of “ní”; I learnt “I do/don’t like=Is/nĂ­ maith liom” but hey! if native speakers are ok with what’s in (I think) the demo, then I won’t fuss. Can’t really hear much difference, anyway.] Speakers are nicely flavoursome in different ways, and very clear. Congratulations, all!

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Ar maith leat..? Ba mhaith/nĂ­or mhaith.
Would you like..? Yes/No.

An maith leat x?
Is maith/ nĂ­ maith.
Do you like x?
Yes/ No.

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This has come at the perfect time for me, as I’ve recently been to Ireland and started doing Duolingo Irish in preparation for that. I’m enjoying trying out the demo, which is also my first go at the new app as I started learning Welsh with SSiW a good few years ago. I found the AI voice quite off-putting at first, but as it’s clearly AI my brain has filed it as such so I’ve stopped expecting to hear a real person during the introductions / fill-in sections. (I like the fill-in sections - the short mental break definitely helps.) Are the female and male voices in the learning units also AI? They sound very similar to the ones on Duolingo!

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I thought I would post something in this thread too, as I hadn’t noticed there was a soecific Irish thread. I subscribed to the Irish course yesterday. However I did the free course quite a while back and it will only let me start from orange belt and I just feel lost.I find if I revisit as far back as it will let me that the recaps are not helpful. I just want to start the course again. I thought the course was good when I first tried it but unless there is way of starting from the beginning again, it will sadly be useless for me please help.

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Yes Patrick, we can reset it.

Rich🙂

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Thank you for asking this, Patrick. I am sure that I will need to asks for resets in future.

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Many thanks for your reply. I have revived an email from support but my account is still showing as orange belt currently. I can confirm I definitely need to start the course from the beginning of the first belt

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I was really excited to see that there was an Irish course now, after a few months of intermittent Welsh-learning (I enjoy the app, I’m just busy and easily distracted). I’ve been learning Irish for a few years and have a decent level of conversational fluency, but my sentence structures are quite limited and there are only some topics I can talk about naturally. I was hoping that the course might give me some different ways of phrasing things and help me speak more readily, as my ability to read Irish is much better than my ability to speak it at present (side-effects of doing five years of Old Irish before I started on modern). Plus, I was hoping I would be able to recommend it to people who ask me for app recs, since e.g. the Duolingo course is particularly weak for Irish, and a lot of other apps don’t offer it at all.

Well
 I did the first hour and a half, maybe two hours of the Irish course, a couple of weeks ago now, but I’m not sure what to think. Yes, it’s giving me some different ways to phrase things, but I’m not feeling very confident that those are accurate phrases. Some of this might be dialectal – I’ve been learning Ulster Irish, and I get the impression the course is aiming solidly for Standard (I hope perhaps in future you’d be able to add dialects like the Welsh course, since I think this is something learners would benefit from). And, as mentioned, I came to Irish from a pretty weird and medieval direction, meaning my early learning wasn’t typical, so I’m never too confident about the phrases I know.

But some of them I’m more sure about, and my comments range from nitpicky to actively concerned. At the nitpickier end, starting the course with phrases like “Labhraím Gaeilge” etc feels a bit misleading: Irish speakers don’t tend to use “Do you speak Irish” “I speak Irish” for the ability to speak Irish, only for the action, and would generally use “An bhfuil Gaeilge agat?” “Tá Gaeilge agam” (Do you have Irish? I have Irish) for the capacity to speak Irish. Obviously there are contexts where you’d use “speak” (“Do you speak Irish with your parents, or English?” “Oh, we speak Irish”) but a beginner isn’t going to know that nuance, so I feel like this will set them down a misleading path.

More concerning was, for example, the use of the phrase of “ag triail” for “trying”. My understanding of this phrase, backed up by Teanglann, is that it’s more “trialling” or “testing” than “making an effort to”. So “TĂĄ mĂ© ag triail Gaeilge a foghlaim” would be more like “I’m trialling learning Irish” (which is what I am doing with this app, to be fair) than “I’m attempting to learn Irish” (which I think was the intended connotation). I’d probably see something like “ag dĂ©anamh iarracht” for the latter.

There were a few other things like this, where it felt like the sentence had been run through Google Translate or similar rather than actually constructed by an Irish speaker. This made me feel a bit nervous that the course would actually be teaching me incorrect phrases and that its very effective teaching methods would mean they got stuck in my head forever, so I’ve stopped.

It would be good to know how much human (and fluently Irish-speaking) input there actually was in developing and checking sentences, so that I might feel more confident about the accuracy of what I’m learning.

I also understand the need to use TTS for voices, for practicalities and finances, but the ones chosen are
 not that great. There are more natural and dialectal Irish voices available, such as those used on Abair.ie. Plus, having three different voices but almost no dialectal variation in pronunciation seems like a missed opportunity – somebody who only ever hears the Standard pronunciation is going to struggle if they go to the Donegal Gaeltacht or similar! This definitely feels like something that could be expanded/improved in future to help learners get a deeper understanding and be more able to actually participate in Irish conversations with speakers from different areas.

So all in all, it feels a little bit too robo-Irish for me at the moment. I think it could be a really valuable resource if tweaked, especially since resources for speaking and listening in Irish can be harder to find, but I’m not sure it’s quite there yet


(Disclaimer that I did my Irish experimentation/testing at the beginning of the month, so if there have been any changes or corrections since then, I would’ve missed them.)

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Hey @Neide, thank you very much for taking the time to share your comments!

I can confirm that all of these phases were translated by a native Irish speaker and not by a machine (I was there in person, watching it happen and talking through decisions! :wink: we started with machine translations as a base, but then read through and edited the whole list in detail.)

All of the not-quite-rightness comes from the requirements of SSi methodology, but we’ve tried to find a middle ground between usefulness (so, we want people to be able to use the patterns in other phrases as much as possible), simplicity (that it’s not too complicated or otherwise difficult to remember), correctness (that were not teaching something too misleading) and
 What should I call it
 Uniqueness? (that we have words that are different enough for concepts that are different in the learner’s language, at least in the beginning of the course). So we had to make some unconventional decisions to make it work, but it was all okayed by a native speaker as “acceptable enough” at the very least, and good in most cases.

So, for example, the “labhraím” thing is there to introduce the pattern of how labhairt and other verbs can change. We thought adding “tá 
 agam” while more natural, wouldn’t be very useful if we taught it as “I speak”, and it would be a bit weird/uncomfortable to teach “I have” so early on. I believe that anyone who has taken a few classes or learnt some Irish in school probably knows about “tá Gaeilge agam”
 Anyone who hasn’t done any Irish in the past at all might say it the more unnatural way, but will come across it or be corrected very soon. It’s for the same reason we don’t teach any "hello"s and “my name is” in SSi courses - people will pick them up very quickly so we see it as a wasted opportunity to learn something more versatile

As for the voices, we’re eager to have all the lines recorded by native speakers with different accents when that becomes an option. We’ve had a few Irish speakers tell us the voices are good enough, so we’re sticking with them until then. Listening to enough Irish langauge media will make up for the lack of variation and pronounciation issues of the current voices, but I’m looking forward to hearing how it goes for people! :slight_smile:

By the way, the explanation above doesn’t mean we’re not open to reconsidering some decisions we’ve made. I’m very grateful for the detailed input as it’ll help us improve the course in the future. But for now I can assure you that the main phrases, as well as how they’re broken down, have been checked by a human, and we’re working on finishing the checks for the second batch of practice phrases as well (about 10,000 of them have already been checked!)

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I was really liking the course until I got to the Orange- White Belt and then they had added so much without enough repetition that I couldn’t do any of the sentences ( went over my10 percent apparently). So I thought I would go back to the beginning of that belt and review it but it doesn’t let you do that. I had to skip back over and over to get where I wanted to start but then when I turned it back on it started me at my furthest point again. So I am stuck. There should be a way to review the lessons if you need to.I can’t go on and going back is a hassle.

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This is a known issue that will be rectified in an update to the app fairly soon. In the meantime, try logging out once you’re back at the point you want to be, then logging in again. That may fix it for you.

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Hi Deborah and all on this thread. Thanks for sharing, Neide, and responding all to that sharing.

I have pointed out the error of “ní mhaith liom” -see upthread - but now it is really REALLY annoying me, lol. I angrily SHOUT to correct the error now, and it is most liberating, lol.

It’s 22 mins past midnight on a wet &;windy post Bank Holiday May night and the app seems to have gone a bit haywire. I think I have been just using the Irish from Welsh and it seems to be getting very random. “Interesting!” thought I as trio dysgu was answered with tĂĄ mĂ© ag iarraidh foghlaim, but then followed some combos that most definitely seemed wrong, but being late, I have not noted it in writing as I went along. I shall do so ASAP but revisiting will of course not allow exact repeat of what happened just now. I agree with Neide’s comment about discomfort/unease about some combos of language chunks. Nowadays I am pretty laid back so “Is cuma liom” - I don’t care.

Really enjoying it. I am dead keen on coming with you to Ireland - have no car but have tent I can barely lift. Will get in training, renew my hated Brit post-Brexit passport but have vowed to apply for my Irish citizenship once I can do it “as Gaeilge” - so not yet.

Could we have some Yosser dialogue from Boys from the Black Stuff script. I need to take world by scruff of neck and say " I can do tha’! Gissa job!" but cannot resist prospect of getting back to Ireland after 12 long years since bereavement interrupted my plans..

Thanks for your generosity in sharing insightful detail on your Basque and other Continental ventures, Deborah. Thanks for helping me through recent time in the Wilderness. I must message Aran direct to ask to be included & seek some advice/indulgence re gift voucher format
 bye for now. SLÁN, hwyl fawr etc etc :blush::smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

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This sounds like what happened to me last year: SSi Gwyddeleg ar gyfer Siaradwyr Cymraeg - #6 by RichardBuck
tĂĄ mĂ© ag iarraidh is what the Irish-through-Welsh has for “I’m trying”, IIRC, but means “I want” in Scots Gaelic. It’s given as “I want” in the new Irish course, too, so I’m still a bit confused


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TĂĄ mĂ© ag iarraidh can be either i want or I’m trying. Inasmuch as dysgu means teaching or learning. As with various verbs in various languages they can have one or more meanings. DĂ©an - do or make. Caith - wear, throw, spend, smoke etc. You’ll struggle initially. But with usage You’ll find context will generally resolve it. Regarding DĂ©an.
You wouldn’t just walk up to someone and say "dĂ©an - do/make.
You’d probably say
déan cupån tae or déan an obair.
Make cup of tea - do the work.
Because do the tea or make the work doesn’t make much sense. So it actually evens itself out gradually and eventually
Ádh mór

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Okay Alan, I am with you on tĂĄ mĂ© ag iarraidh as a possible translation of I’m trying but I am.being a little more fully awake and proactive at 2.37am and there is definitely a mix-up happening on this beta “Irish from Welsh” which is becoming apparent to me only now because for once, in what was a mildly insomniac state, I am actually looking at the white screen


[Aside: I long for a dark mode, but lol, beggars can’t be choosers and I am so lucky to have this beta privilege!]

I heard, from my phone in the dark, my eyes closed:

Aran’s voice: “ymarfer mwy”
Irish voice “cleachtadh a dhĂ©anamh anois”

‘THAT indeed IS wrong!’ thinks my befuddled brain, ‘As happened in the middle of night a night or two ago - I’m not imagining this glitsch.’

So I look at screen for the next gobbet/sequence:

Aran: dwi isio ymarfer
On phone screen: ymarfer a dysgu
Irish voice: cleachtadh a dhéanamh agus foghlaim (and onscreen Irish flashing up agrees)

Aran: “trio ymarfer”
On phone screen: ymarfer mwy
Irish voice: “nĂ­os mĂł cleachtadh a dhĂ©anamh”

So Welsh spoken prompt is out of sync with the onscreen - and that’s why to just listen in the dead of night, as an aid to regaining soporific state, is not an option, lol. :laughing::wink::melting_face:

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Hi Iornarhodes
Firstly seeing smiling faces makes me think you aren’t freaking out too much with this and still in some way enjoying. Which for me is important whilst learning. Secondly i dont work for SSI or claim to understand the ongoing glitches. But im sure these posts are being monitored by @Kai etc. I am however an Irish language teacher so i can see what’s happening there. Whilst learning Cymraeg and Irish i had a lot of either classes or zoom sessions to clarify almost as soon as it arose or i listened to others having questions i didn’t know i had responded too. But you do have the help of this forum albeit not an immediate response.
“Ymarfer mwy” - “practice more”.
“Cleachtadh a dhĂ©anamh anois”- "to do practice now"literally.
"NĂ­os mĂł Cleachtadh a dhĂ©anamh " Lit: “to do more practice”
When i say Literally, i mean a sentence can vary slightly in meaning and not sit like for like on top of one another. And can also vary slightly in meaning in context and as a part of longer sentence.
Tå mé ag Cleachtadh.
Tå mé ag iarraidh Cleachtadh.
Ba maith liom Cleachtadh.
Ba mhaith liom níos mó Cleachtadh a dhéanamh. Etc
Keep smiling and slowly working through. Its how im dealing with learning Spanish :rofl::smiling_face_with_sunglasses::beach_with_umbrella::tropical_drink:

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This is a known issue, which has unfortunately led to me abandoning the Irish through the medium of Welsh for the time being.

Read down the replies in that thread - some people say that the problem is intermittent, but I didn’t find it so.

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Thank you for taking the time to reply, Richard. I shall be continuing, despite syncing problems but without the sinking feeling that it must be me, I who misheard, or whatever. I started to learn Irish 15 years ago, and got nowhere with productive language or with the receptive, except with the simplest of sentences. The SSiW 6mth Speaker course was wonderful for allowing me early fluency without anything but Duolingo basic Welsh. Of course now the consolidation and extension must occur, and relating Welsh to Irish is proving helpful to both. I am really not going to be fazed by the glitches of beta, especially now that I know I must watch the screen. With 6 mth Welsh of 2018, from my native English, I loved not letting myself look at Welsh vocab until it was clear I really needed to in order to avoid confusion or to make faster progress. I am just so grateful at the prospect of linking spoken/heard language in those tongues that I have a smattering in. Greetings and thanks!