Helo Netmouse,
I take your point about it being different for a language tourist from England (was that a barbed comment or am I being over-sensitive? Dimont jocio ). Possibly it is also less threatening if one declares oneself as a learner at the outset. Certainly, if you are local, there is dim point in returning to the same place, time after time, and trio siarad Cymraeg when you have previously established they don’t. However, if, as you say, English speakers feel excluded, then what better way to include them than by a salutation or snippet of Welsh into the conversation, with an inviting tone, amiable facial expression and submissive body posture: I find rolling onto my back with my legs in the air is often the most effective, if not always the most appropriate.
Seriously though, the World currently seems full of people itching to take offence at something: and by the way, I’m more than just a language tourist you know (only joking eto) and if we reserve speaking Welsh for situations where we are certain we will be greeted by another Welsh speaker; where can we speak it? The Eisteddfod and possibly Caernarfon.
The choice is fairly simple: either we speak it less and less to llai and llai pobl neu we try and normalise it by speaking it naturally and opportunistically as widely as we can. It seems an odd paradox that Welsh speakers should be deterred from speaking Welsh in Wales because it is culturally sensitive.The next time I visit the Dordogne I might let the remaining French people there have a piece of my mind about them continuing to speaking French, when they know I don’t like it! (joke alert again - in case they’re difficult to spot)
I would venture that our lives are too short to be deterred by worrying about people’s reactions to something quite harmless and inoffensive but, everyone to their own. As for me, I might try my French out in Cowbridge next time I go there. If you see me with deux jeux noir, byddwch i’n gwybod pam!
Nic(k)
I think we need some YouTube evidence for this…
Yes, I think this is the point. And of course wherever it is in Wales one shouldn’t feel guilty or bad about starting a conversation with a stranger in Welsh - what’s the worst that can happen? It might be an idiot who decides to take offence. Well so what? You wouldn’t change someone like that anyway. But there are far more positive results, the least of which is that, even if you find it’s a non-Welsh speaker, you’ve still done a little bit for the profile of the language in the public space, haven’t you? Well…that’s what I think, anyway! 
Certainly does, Nick…It certainly does,
Oh dear, what a can of worms.
Yes, it is a bizarre paradox and bothers me a lot at the moment!
It wasn’t a barbed comment about language tourists - I love language tourists, but the issues do get a bit more complicated when you’re living in a heavily English-speaking area of Wales.
Well that’s true unfortunately. But in this case I’m not sure if “offense” isn’t actually a bit strong though. For me, it’s a mixture of several things:
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Not wanting to make people (like my friend next door) feel uncomfortable by implication.
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Not wanting to come across as a clever-clogs. There’s still a feeling that Welsh is a bit difficult and academic.
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If I felt more welcomed into the welsh-speaking community myself, I would probably feel a bit more positive about actively promoting it, and “outing” as an enthusiast. Apart from a few lovely advanced learners, I’ve met few people who have been particularly encouraging so far. (If I ever get to a bootcamp I hope that feeling may change of course!)
OK, really nuff said now, sorry I started it!
I should say I was talking about living in Kent, the political correctness that surrounds me and day to life in England and Nick’s comment. I wasn’t referring to Wales specifically…or anything you’ve said.
I’m of an age where I do not do political correctness Whatever that means…
Netmouse - I don’t suppose you have children/pop into Cardiff much? Most of the friendly folk I have found here are parents I have met at Menter Caerdydd and there are loads of things on every week. The vast majority are first language speakers and they are very kind in speaking slowly/repeating etc.
(I am a bad mother having just put my daughters name down for swimming lessons - that is another half hour sat with the other parents chatting 
)
Anwyl netmouse,
Don’t worry about about arguing a perfectly valid point: it’s an interesting debate and one which I’m sure looks different living where you do. For the record, my quip about the language tourist was intended as a tongue-in-cheek play on your concerns about being oversensitive; I am not sensitive about that at all, especially since, I am a Welsh language tourist for all intents and purposes, and only a learner at that, and a smart-Alec to bwt, so I probably have little right to express much of an opinion at all - but pam lai? Its something thing to do I suppose; until the evenings draw out a bit.
Nos da
Nick (can’t decide about the K)
Hi Jenny, I do have (welsh speaking)kids, and although I don’t take them into Cardiff that often, we easily could - it’s not that far. I’ll definitely have a look at Menter Caerfydd - I have to admit I don’t really know what they offer. Thanks!
And thank you smart-alec language tourist too! (Oh dear, humour in a discussion forum…)
I’ve just caught up with this thread and, although I can’t really add anything to it, would like to mention how I deal with Welsh around the Wrecsam area. I open EVERY conversation in Welsh even with people I know that don’t know any Welsh (all the people I work with now know what bore da and ti’n iawn mean and sometimes even reply in the right way). Usually people say “I don’t speak Welsh” and I used to reply with “sorry, …” now I’ve learnt to say “That’s a shame, …” . Sometimes (more often than you’d think) it ends in a Welsh conversation which brightens up the day for two people and that is worth more than all the negativity than I could possibly get.
I just found this thread and like it a lot. I have never understood the objection to Wenglish, which to me seemed both a bridge, and to some people, just ‘talking naturally’!! There are many peoples whose language is ‘illegal’ in their own land, as ours was once. Only pride in our language and in speaking it will help those people’s cause. I am so glad that there are fewer and fewer men who would stare at their grandson in a Cardiff bookshop and ask, in awed tones, “Can you really understand that?” when the lad has chosen llyfr Cymraeg!! from Jackie
Well I think I can argue with that, at least a little bit. Although I didn’t do well with languages at school, taking my first trip abroad just after leaving school got me hooked, and I became a regular attendant at heavily oversubscribed evening classes - I can still remember the long queues on signup night, and classes in my local area seem to have remained well attended at least until more recent years, when cuts in subsidies mean they are now quite expensive, and they become not cost-effective for the colleges to run - it becomes a downward spiral. Of course, since the 70s (that’s the 1970s ) when I started to get involved, there are now a lot more and different opportunities to learn, and people generally travel more than they used to.
I think a lot of people do actually still have a desire to learn, but when they try conventional methods, they often get disappointed, and language classes have always had a high dropoff rate in my experience.
Hopefully SSi and other modern methods can do something about this.
I well remember those sign-up nights in Gillingham for a myriad of courses years ago, Mike. With the language classes’ gradually seeing a lot of people dropout over the first terms…By year two wondering if there’d be enough students for it to carry on. Sad really because the initial enthusiasm was high with everyone wanting to learn their chosen language.
Your comment about pricing is correct as well: the higher cost is often off putting to many. Especially to those on low incomes but not receiving benefits; thus not getting discounts…
I’m really glad you brought this up as well, netmouse - I think it’s a really interesting area of discussion. It made me think of a couple of parallel situations I’ve experienced.
Firstly, breastfeeding in public. A lot of people are uncomfortable with it because they’re not used to seeing it, but the more they see it the less unusual or difficult it will seem. (And probably best not to get into the whole thing about flaunting boobs - I’m talking about the discreet under-the-jumper stuff that most mums go for.) Many people see that as a political act.
Secondly, I also engage in such outrageous public acts as holding my wife’s hand when we’re in the street. Many people consider this a political act, and I suppose it could be thus construed. But actually, I’m just holding my wife’s hand because she’s, y’know, my wife.
Similarly, a lot of people who speak Welsh are just speaking their language (or what they would like to become their language). It’s not about proving anything or trying to impose anything, but about being allowed to be who they are. The political part comes from not allowing other people’s negative opinions to force you to hide who you are. That’s one thing you learn when you’re gay!
But really interesting thoughts on this thread. Thanks!
This is a fascinating subject, and gets to the heart of why so few people feel a need to learn Welsh, and also possibly why lots of people drop out of Welsh lessons, or worse, spend years “learning Welsh” but never become Welsh speakers.
Thank you very much, netmouse for starting the conversation, and for sticking with it when people seemed to be diagreeing with you (!) - it’s vitally important for people to remember that everyone learns for different reasons, has different tolerances towards different fears, and different ways (and timescales) of overcoming those fears. Discussing them openly is a great way of letting other learners and new speakers that their fears / reasons / tolerances are normal as well!
Two things that stand out to me. One is that you have had difficulty getting to be a part of the Welsh language community. Is this because you have tried and been made unwelcome (or rather just not welcomed, which can be the same thing if your already taking a frightening step in being there in the first place!), or have you not found a way to get in yet? These are both issues that Ffrindiath is trying to address, but there ar other ways as well.
The second is that starting a conversation in Welsh seems a bit “na-na: Look at me” to you. I can understand that, having been brought up as a good chapel boy with a mother who didn’t even like showing the amazing painted crockery she used to make, because it felt a bit like boasting. I think we are often taught that achieving something can be a bit dirty unless it’s something that everyone else has achieved as well, and it’s something that is ingrained in us from a very early age. I get that horrible feeling when I meet a fluent-English speaking French speaker in a non-French-speaking environment. It’s far more comfortable to speak in English rather than showing off that I speak French, especially as I will then have to admit that it’s not particularly good French.
I wonder whether ending the conversation in Welsh would be a good compromise. There’s no “showing off”, there’s no “Come on, speak Welsh to me” involved, and by the time the person has registered any discomfort, you will be gone and forgotten. Yet if you finsh every transaction / coversation etc with a cheery “diolch!” (or even “diolch! Thank you!”), or part with a frendly “da bo” or “hwyl fawr”, then any Welsh speaker will automatically answer in the same vein. You’v already concluded, so there’s no pressure to carry on the conversation, but if you want, you can ask “wyt ti’n siarad Cymraeg?”, and you will know for the next time. You’re achieving a tiny bit of normalising (thank you very much - you don’t have to but it’s very weloome!), more importantly, your achieving a big amount of normalising personally - speaking Welsh in public will start to lose some of it’s baggage - and you may pick up the occasional Welsh speaking aquaintance or even friend along the way.
BTW, I particularly like the comparison with breast-feeding, and same sex couples holding hands, because they are the same social norms being broken, with the most open minded of people potentially being uncomfortable (because of the broken social norm, rather than any rational reason), there’s the same fear of personal danger, and exactly the same will happen if you go out and do what you think is right - it will become a new norm, first to you, then to the people surrounding you. If enough people do it, it will become a part of the culture. Bargain.
Interesting. Yes, I admit that some, if not most, of my reticence comes from the fact that I haven’t quite decided yet whether I’m emotionally into this Welsh language business, or whether my main motivation is just for a fuller understanding of the kids’ education. I had been hoping for more of an emotional connection by now, and I haven’t given up yet! To be honest, I haven’t invested much time or energy, just feel a bit disappointed that so little seems to come back from the efforts I do make. And I haven’t tried Ffrindiaith, so that may be the next step. I do speak Welsh to quite a lot of people who I know can speak it, from time to time, but I never hear them speaking it to each other so it just seems a bit odd somehow.
I think it’s a bit different to the breastfeeding and same sex couples issues, as people can just choose to ignore those if they want. (I’ve certainly done my bit for breastfeeding over the years!) But speaking to someone in a different language is maybe a bit more of a direct challenge?
Can I throw in Vegetarians? My wife and I have been for a long time and have witnessed a gradual normalisation in attitudes to the point where, even non-vegetarians often go for the vegetarian options at meetings I attend: I know achos there is sometimes none left for me! There certainly used to be a feeling that one was implying criticism of others by being a vegetarian and being holier than thou, and one would sometimes have to put up with an interrogation: “Do you wear leather shoes?” and trying to spot a weakness whereby they could demonstrate that you weren’t pure and therefore could brand us as hypocrites and nail us to walls: those were the days my friends. I suppose being a breast feeding, vegetarian Welsh speaker could be construed as having something of a death wish!
I take your point that it’s just you holding your wife’s hand (and so it shouldn’t merit comment) - but I’d still like to say thank you very much for doing that, because every time you walk down the street, you’re helping normalise the kind of tolerant society that benefits all of us. 
Are there particular events/interactions that have been disappointing? If you felt like sharing, maybe we could see if you’ve been let down, or if some of them haven’t been the kind of situation where we’d expect much either…
Otherwise, I echo everything Iestyn has said 
You may well just be one Welsh-speaking friendship away from a very different experience…
Hard to pinpoint really - I sound like a right moaner! Actually I haven’t even succeeded in finding the Welsh-speaking culture in Barry, let alone broken into it! But I have to say I don’t have time to go out looking, and I know there are sometimes things on like Noson Gomedi which I just haven’t tried yet. (And probably wouldn’t understand anyway!)
At the school gate, I am literally the only person who ever speaks Welsh (except whoever I’ve cornered of course.) There is one lovely mum who will generally start talking to me in Welsh - but only if nobody else is around. (And our kids aren’t friends, so that’s that really.) With other people it feels like asking a bit of an odd favour. I have just been disappointed really that I can never find any conversations to lurk around.
Anyway, it’s been interesting to write all this down, and has made me think I could probably be a bit more positive about it. There have been some really good suggestions in this thread - thanks folks! - so with a bit of luck things will only get better.