Offensive - to welch on a deal?

My wife is giving a speech to her local Toastmasters group about the Welsh people. We would like to know whether the Welsh are offended by the expression “to welch on a deal”.

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Some people are. I wouldn’t know what proportion of people in Wales, though, given that people who are offended by whatever, understandably tend to shout louder than those who aren’t.

I wouldn’t use it. To me it symbolises the ‘othering’ and suspicion of a culture that isn’t default English.

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I should point out that my wife is active in her local Toastmasters group - an organisation that encourages public speaking. She has to give a speech next week and, no doubt under the influence of her Welsh-learning hubby, has decided to talk about the Welsh people for her topic.

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To me, if someone, who had no reason to know any better said that quite innocently not meaning to cause any offence then I personally wouldn’t be offended, but it’s such an old expression that it’s going to be more likely that someone using that expression would be a bit of a stirrer, trying to provoke a response - not generally a good attribute to have and a bad reflection on them.

Discussing the expression and it’s origins would be a good thing though

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The simplest option is surely to pick another expression - why not say ‘go back on a deal’, for example? Perfectly good idiomatic English.

That said, the eagerness of some in our society to find offence where none was intended is very tiresome these days, I feel…

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Not living in Wales, I have no easy way of knowing if the word “Welsh” or “Welch” used in this context is considered offensive - and of course the idea of doing so would horrify us. But we were interested to know the facts on the ground.
By the way, I am Jewish; my wife is Jewish and ethnically Japanese, from Ontario, and both of her parents’ families were interred in benign camps in Canada during WW2 for the sin of being Japanese - so we are a bit sensitive to racial slurs. That’s one reason why we found it interesting and slightly disturbing when we came across this term, which to me sounds as culturally enlightened as “to jew somebody”.
I’m finding that one of the unexpected benefits of learning Welsh is to make me more culturally sensitive. I agree that sometimes we go over the top, but in this case (welching someone) I didn’t know where that top was…
Thanks very much to all for the input!

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I was going to say that talking about “Welshing on a deal” is about as tactful as saying “to jew somebody” or refer to “an indian giver”. That last one may be more American than British, but they are all best avoided as they certainly make me prickle.

From an elderly person, I’d ignore it because I’d assume they hadn’t updated their vocabulary to move with the times, but young people are more sensitive to the fact that, though minor in themselves, these little digs are a sign of thoughtlessness as there are plenty of ways to say the same thing without dragging nationality, race or religion into it.

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Similar to Toffidil’s post, I wouldn’t personally take offence if it was used in all innocence (or perhaps that should be ignorance?), but yes, if you know the roots of the phrase, then it does become offensive. I would certainly not be offended if it came up in a talk explaining the historical context and resulting connotations though.

I would suggest that perhaps the most offensive thing anyone could say to a Welsh person is to call them English, much in the same way as Canadians don’t like being called Americans, etc! :wink:

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Pob lwc Mrs Baruch and it’s great you have decided to talk about the Welsh folk.

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Not quite as bad as -

Taffy was a Welshman
Taffy was a thief,
Taffy came to my house
and stole a leg of beef!!

Still hear it occasionally, not sure where it comes from.

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You should dig out some of the original, more offensive verses as well, where Taffy gets beaten with a poker - interesting how people used to think, but on the flip side these sorts of things were written at a time when people would dress up their kids in best clobber and take a picnic hamper along to the village green to go and watch a good hanging.

Edit: Just tagged this on - it was particularly popular in the border counties apparently and sung in many villages on St David’s day up until the mid twentieth century.

I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was in bed,
I took the marrow bone and beat about his head. 

I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was not in;
Taffy came to my house and stole a silver pin.
I went to Taffy's house, Taffy was in bed;
I took up a poker and threw it at his head.
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I just want to clarify that my wife had no intention of using the expression in her speech. She wants to mention anti-Welsh sentiment and to see how that expression is perceived by Welsh people. She really appreciates all of the helpful comments!

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When I first heard the expression “to welch on a bet”, it never occurred to me that the words “welch” and “Welsh” were related. (Possibly I first came across it in writing, where perhaps it is more distinguishable). Learning later that there was such a thing as the “Royal Welch Fusiliers” would have given me the clue I needed that they were in fact related.

Reading around the subject today, I learned that (as a surname) “Walsh” was an alternative spelling, although I tend to think of that as an Irish surname.

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As I think was Wallace as in William Wallace.

PS I imagine the notorious Welsh Drovers have got something to do with the images portrayed of Welsh people and links to deals and bets etc, in much the same way as Irish Navvies were used as stereotypes of Irish people?

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I went to a storytelling evening in Cardiff a while back, and someone thought that this rhyme (the first verse) would be a good contribution… No one else apart from me and my partner seemed at all put out by it! (One of the many reasons we never went back to that particular event.)

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When we were young we used to skip to the Taffy rhyme and other gory and now politically incorrect rhymes. I lived on the border.

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On a lighter note (perhaps not :grimacing:) is it ok to refer to the origonal or central psrt of Welsh cities as the town as a term of endearment? Also in Cymreag. I should know by now. Im just thinking of the 6 cities.

What I mean is, going to town, I live in the town itself, etc. .

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It’s interesting you mention the rhyme came from the border counties. It’s just part of history that the skipping songs we sung innocently as children had no political meaning to us they were just sang with many others whichever side of the border you came from.
I don’t remember any animosity at all between border folk where I grew up, families were intertwined, but somehow I knew from an early age which part my heart belonged.

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Sort of related… this week. Canada’s trade negotiations with the USA faltered and it was reported that the deal had been “scotched”. I looked up the origins of the expression which seems to have varied in meaning over the past 300 years–not always, or necessarily being negative.

Out of sheer curiosity, are there also expressions involving the terms ‘Englished’ and ‘Irished’? I cannot think of any, but wondered whether we have some famous playwrights to hold accountable for common usage/abusage of racially-specific terms in the UK?

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The nearest I can think of are Anglicised and Celticised, but as you know, these refer mainly to language construction or general culture/design.

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