On the northern courses, we learn fairly early about the “chdi” variant of “ti/di”, e.g. in such phrases as:
“efo chdi”
However, I came across something today which I’d never noticed before, on the 4 Mehefin 15 edition of “Rownd a Rownd”, confirmed by the Welsh subtiltes, which was the use of
“oeddach” (or “roeddach”), i.e. “oeddach chdi” (or “roeddach chdi”).
This was said by two different characters in the same episode, and came as a surprise, as I’d have expected “oeddet chdi” (in line with “oeddet ti”).
Or is it just the case that the “ch” in “chdi” “forces” the use of “oeddach” (perhaps because it’s easier to say?).
On the other hand, another character said: “Chdi oedd …” in another part of the programme.
Now I don’t expect subtitles to necessarily reproduce 100% accurately what the actors have said, and it’s also possible also for actors to make a slip of the tongue, but I think these were said fairly clearly, and the subtitles seemed to correspond to the speech in these cases.
I know this is probably a “felly mae - paid a phoeni” situation, but it struck me as curious, and interesting.
Yes, this. It’s the same chdi, as in it’s informal, but it has to go with ‘oeddech’.
‘Chdi oedd’ is a different thing - the order is different, for emphasis - and in that case, it’ll always be oedd - ‘chdi oedd’, ‘ti oedd’, ‘fo oedd’, etc…
Thanks Aran. I had sort of assumed that “oeddech” (or “oeddach”) was a “2nd person plural / polite” form of the verb, so was surprised seeing it in a familiar singular context.
In the case in question, it was two long-term best friends talking, so definitely informal/familiar, and it was also a case where the “you” was being emphasised, so the “chdi” at front doesn’t surprise me, but the “oedd” does a bit. But i guess that’s just how Welsh works.
[Preamble:
Ok, not sure whether I should make a whole new topic, but I come in at a tangent with wonderings…
Please forgive my own lack of independent research - happy to take guidance on where/what I can go (to) in order to help myself…]
Efo chdi, but would a northern or canolbarthist ever say gyda chdi?
Is chdi really a pronoun in dative or accusative (scuse my Latin & grammar school education) but I mean
is it ever for “singular you” in the “direct or indirect object” rôle(s)?
Is that a silly question?
Is it an emphasis thing a bit like tinnau?
Dw i isio i ti wneud rhywbeth (never: …i chdi wneud)?
Dw i’n dy caru di - no chdi in there, ever?
would I ever find it after words like am, fel, oherwydd etc?
Is “efo chdi” its main use -
GK gives: “mi weles i chdi” as another use (looks like one sort of direct object to my untrained-in-Welsh eye…)
I shall look out for chdi everywhere in my “North Walian” readings from now on.
Even so, apart from “dy…di” situations I’ll always be understood if when speaking or informally writing I go for ti anywhere in Wales (ledled Cymru!? dros y byd?!) if it is nominative (subject) or accusative (direct object).
(I could make no sense of the examples in answers to this original thread, and if my curiosity is inappropriate, then I credit/blame @neil-pyper for getting me reading… )
Ti goes for everything that is subject, and anywhere else I might be unsure as default?
Am becomes amdanat ti. I don’t know if, like oeddach it becomes amdanoch chdi but, based on Elin Fflur being a very gog gog she sings “mae na rwybeth amdanat ti”. Here i’d expect chdi if chdi was used. So I’m assuming it’s always amdanat ti
Perffaith! @Antony Cusack Diolch yn fawr iawn… Thank you especially for your encouragement & tone of reassurance.
Perfect choice (for me) in your selection of examples… I realise that Elin Fflur and Gwyneth Glin have been singing their influence into my ears for some time, counteracting any tendency for South Walianisms to predominate in my diet. I’ll listen/observe/notice/sylwi more carefully/attentively now…
Sometimes I don’t know what to do with a “grammar” Latinate-ish viewpoint. It can be a real pain. Mostly I look at grammars and think: will I ever meet enough Russians, Dutch-fluent people, or whomever/whatever, to care about all these verb forms or subtle differences in use of conjunctions?..or whatever you call things that may be introducing subordinate clauses (?) and I know I ought to know how to use the terminology but 55 years (or more) later, it has just “gone” from my brain.
I’ve enjoyed playing truant from formal grammar & classes, but now that I’m reading and listening more widely, I need to get my synapses more comprehensively connected, help them to be a little more discriminating in their choice of “firings”…
Efo chdi, but would a northern or canolbarthist ever say gyda chdi?
@nia.llywelyn and tad kindly answered my query in a Hangout today about gyda llaw - the meaning/sense of which I have already forgotten (was it perhaps “btw’?)
Even in the N it’s gyda llaw not efo llaw.
This is going off at a tangent but on the usages of “Northernisms” and interchangeabilities of gyda with/for gan, and efo, is another huge curiosity I’m left with… Curiosity is good: it motivates me to learn, to “dal ati”, and it only kills cats, apparently!
Exactly that! By the way. It’s a ready made idiom, so doesn’t change to efo. There are other examples of this but, of course, my mind has now gone blank.
)
