That’s very interesting! When people use.“ff” instead of “th” or “v” instead of voiced “th” in English, I hear it quite clearly! I don’t care about it or pass judgement of course! I simply hear it. I wonder if that would be the same for me in Welsh? That is, I wonder if it’s a difference between the languages or between us as individuals? (I don’t wonder about it enough to conduct a scientific test, mind!)
But yes, they are close enough for some English dialects /manners of speaking /whatever to swap them about, so they are certainly very close!
Hey Lurch! Flattery will get you everywhere. 
I look to you for lots of learning, so it’s a fair exchange.
I’m not disputing that, though what the rules are that govern the pronunciation of “ynys” and “ysbyty” are certainly never things I officially learned, and I don’t know that it’d have been useful to try. As for word stress, right, there are limited exceptions, and formal principles for most – but isn’t it easier just to learn how to say “Cymraeg”?
[quote=“owainlurch, post:40, topic:5064”]
The words I was thinking of are “gwybod” and “ei,” neither of which is ever pronounced as written in ordinary non-churchy speech, at least not without drawing down The Great Wrath of Aran. 
I don’t mean to put down learning rules. My only point is that learning by listening, and then checking the spelling and going “huh, interesting, so that’s how it’s spelled! Weird!,” seems more reliable to me than trying to go from rules of pronunciation to speech, in early stages of Welsh as well as other languages.
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[quote=“tahl, post:42, topic:5064”]
Flattery will get you everywhere.
[/quote]
Oh, absolutely- pronouncing words as they are in dictionaries will often (usually… always… 
) not get you exactly how they are pronounced in your area, even if you take them from Twitter or Facebook rather than the bible!
But if you do pronounce gwybod as it is spelled, as it is spelled phonetically in things like “The welsh Learners Dictionary”, it’s going to be understood. It’s going to be the standard word. And you can just switch when you hear later hear people saying something different.
I mean, this happens when you do SsiW as well- people speak in a different way, using different words, with a different pronounciation than is given in SSiW - unless you happen to live next door to Aran or Iestyn! 
And certainly it is easier to learn word stress exceptions like “Cymraeg” when they occur rather than as obscure, not always observed rules - but the point is they are so few and far between it doesn’t really matter if you just get a few words wrong like that until you get corrected/ hear your mistake.
Oh, good call on “ei” though - it is one of the very,very,very few words in Welsh which has an “inbuilt” spelling “error”. It should be spelled “i”, but got changedf to “ei” by Salisbury in the translation of the New Testament because he liked Latinising spelling (it was fashionable in most languages at the time!) It’s one of the very few of his Latinised words which survived. So I’ll certainly give you that one as not fitting into the Welsh spelling system, fair play to you!
And you are right in my view - I think it is far better to go from listening face to face and talking to people to spelling than the other way round, but written forms can clear up some of the hearing and mispronunciation issues which can arise in some circumstances, and can produce a whole lot of other learning material which can be accessed when you don’t have the opportunity/inclination to listen to something!
Yeah, as always with these things I think it’s a different in emphasis than in any difference over the basic ideas
That is an interesting question, and one that I have never thought of until you asked it, so I don;t know.
I wonder (off the cuff) whether, in English, there is a certain sensitivity to the common, often working class, F instead of Th and that kind of thing. I’m not accusing you of being a snob or anything, what I mean is that because the culture is in the language and the language in the culture, there are a lot of sensitivities in the English language that are class based. Consider adverts: If you want a sophisticated someone to sell particularly smooth chocolate, you wouldn’t choose a Brummy. On the other hand, if you’re selling some kind of handyman service, then cheeky cockney is spot on. I’m not saying it;s right, or that we even believe it in a logical thinking way, just that that is how they are presented.
The same goes when you’re "finking abaat i’ " - it’s not that you are judging the speaker, it;s just that you are conditioned to dislike the language by constant cultural judging.
In Welsh, because it would be unusual to here a v instead of a dd etc, I think we are just not seisitive about it or to it. As a second language Welsh speaker, still listening out for differences to beat yourself up about (yes we all do that in our second languages!) then maybe you would notice it more than I would. Language is such a fluid, interesting thing, and affected by so many different factors - this would be a cracking subject for a scientific study!
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No, no, of course not - all perfectly valid points and well made. Interesting…
Isn’t the existence of two ’ official’ verb endings in the third sing short future tense '-iff’and ‘-ith’ a sign that there is considerable overlap in how these sounds are experienced?
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Good point! But surely the very fact that the endings are differentiated and spelled shows that Welsh speakers notice these things? Thinking about it, that ending is one I certainly notice in Welsh (I frequently hear both endings in the areas I talk to people in Welsh). [edited to add - a saying about my grandfather definitely started “pan clywiff e cilog yn canu” rather than “pan clywith e ceiliog” 
] Whether that is because simply I do, or, because I am listening out for it for one reason or another (as Iestyn suggests as a possibility) or both, I have no idea. Yet again, interesting…
Teeny input to non-test! I hear those in both languages! I’m afraid they grate on me in both languages!! But then I’m a grouchy aged crone of a dragoness!!! I’d say I’m like you, but nastier!!
Diolch yn fawr iawn iawn!! I never understood why it was ei!
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I was about to make exactly that point!
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I’m not sure about this. It’s not so much that we don;t hear the difference, but that we don;t notice the difference. When I started recording the SSiW course and we got to the wneith / wneiff section, I honestly didn’t know which I said, or which was “correct”, and had to do a bit of research to find out that both were right but that one was more colloquial than the other. I’d never really noticed that there were different versions, and certainly wasn’t aware of using one over the other (or a mix - I still don;t know to be honest).
So in books, or in reported speech etc, then consciously choosing one over the other as a dialect marker is one thing, but being aware of the difference, before it is brought to your attention, is another. I suspect that there is more of “a thing” about the ff / th thing in English, and thus you notice it, because it is constantly brought to your attention.
I don’t really think so. I know my father notices the iff/ith thing. He doesn’t judge or have an opinion in what’s right, he just notices it. Sort of more common locally. Similarly with me. Its not a “thing”, just something I notice. And, as I say, apparently my father too. Only been mentioned by him when I was trying to write down stuff about my grandfather in the way people said it. He wouldn’t have commented otherwise. Like I say, simply heard and noticed along with every other aspect of speech, not a thing though. Still, I’m sure it’s different for everybody! [edit- I have heard other Welsh speakers say they notice it, but have talked with so few on this subject that that means nothing! Your experience shows that their experience of the matter is certainly not universal!]
Mind you, I’m not sure my father is typical in many ways! On this subject, he is often listening carefully to Welsh speakers to try and tell where they come from (and seems, to me anyway, to be pretty good at it!) Just natural curiosity on his part - no judging people from where they come from! - if opening your mouth in English can tie you to a social class, it can tie you to a milltir sgwâr in Welsh! So though my father is not the only person I have heard this from, he may well habitually listen more closely than most!
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There are some people I know who would say that is impossible…
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Not in the matter of accents and language, but just generally, my experience is that most folk in Wales ask virtually immediately where you are from and try to find a mutual relation, or at the very least, someone both know!!
Of course, this may be more Gower than Wales, as I’m not sure I found it so much in Gwynedd. However, there, everyone knew who I was and with whom I was staying, so knew my lack of any other connection!
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Certainly happens everywhere in Wales I know well enough to comment on. But occasionally there is a little kind of ‘dance’ skirting around the subject which can go on where asking directly and immediately would be too easy! But it is always there at the forefront of wanting to know about someone, yes, I’ve found too!
Hehe … I’d be the lifetime riddle then. or is “oh, you’re the foreigner” enough???
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We had an ex-POW in our village, always known as and referred to as ‘Joe the German’. He had married a local girl and I knew his daughter. If anyone mentioned her, her German ancestry was, so to speak, part of her name!! So, I think you would be Tatjana from Slovenia, even if you lived there for decades!!
Tatjana the sLOVEne
[SIZE=9]What means that I love all not that I should be loved by all[/size]
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I LOVE that!!
I was trying to think of a place with CARU in the middle, but I can’t!!
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There has to be the basis for a good comedy sketch or two in that scenario…
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