I'm a beginner having difficulty telling the consonants apart

I had a feeling as I wrote the posts above that someone would say “You’re over-thinking it”, and perhaps I am, @tatjana. You have a point.

The problem is, you can’t UN-know what you know. We’re all the sum of our backgrounds and native languages and experiences, and we bring all those things to our learning of a new language. Sure, you can try to relax and go with the flow, but you can’t NOT know what you already know. Language analysis comes as naturally to me as breathing, so when I encounter a sound in an unfamiliar language, I mentally tuck it away into its appropriate phonological category without even consciously thinking about it.

And I DID try to relax and go with the flow with this course - and look where it got me! Pronouncing “ddim” with the English “v”, pronouncing “prun-ni” as “thrun-ni” because “pr” sounds like “thr”, thinking “gall-i” was “gach-i”… Going with the flow has already produced too many wrong turns that easily could have turned into permanent bad habits, given that I don’t have any Welsh speakers nearby to correct me. If I hadn’t come here to the forum and written this post, I’d still be thinking “ddim” is the same as English “vim”. And I’d be thinking that forever, because if it still sounds like “vim” to me after four full lessons, despite Iestyn and Cat saying it slowly and carefully, that’s not likely to change, especially when their speech starts speeding up.

I’m still pronouncing it as “vim” now, even though I now know it’s ddim. I was running through sentences in my mind last night in bed, and every time, “ddim” came out as “vim” before I could correct it. I say dwi-ddim-in, ti-ddim-in, dwi-ddim-in, ti-ddim-in to myself over and over again, but as soon as I try use it in a sentence of any complexity (anything longer than “I don’t speak” or “you don’t say”), out comes dwi-vim-in and ti-vim-in. Every single time. It’s a difficult habit to break, but I’m trying very hard to break it. And the maddening thing is, it’s a habit I never would have acquired in the first place if only I had been able to hear the word properly.

So I hope you can understand why I’m so reluctant to acquire any more bad habits just because I can’t hear the instructor properly. It’s one thing to hear a word correctly and then get it wrong because you forget, or because your tongue struggles to wrap itself around a sound that doesn’t occur in your native language, or whatever. Those are all natural parts of learning any language. You shrug it off and try again. Practice overcomes it in the end. It’s quite another thing to get it wrong and never have the chance to get it right because you can’t hear. It’s frustrating, and all the practice in the world will never overcome that, because you have no idea you’re doing it wrongly.

Hearing loss is the most maddening thing. When I’m at, say, a party, or when someone is speaking to me with their face turned away, I feel like I’m in a cage made of thick glass, tapping on it and trying to understand what people outside are saying. Hearing loss cuts you off from people. (Helen Keller said “Blindness separates people from things. Deafness separates people from people”. She was right.)

And my hearing loss is still only very mild. Extremely mild. I manage perfectly well in quiet surroundings where I can see the person’s mouth as they speak. I take my hat off to @MarilynHames who has managed to become fluent in a second language with such profound hearing loss.

@Flynn, yes, I agree, making mistakes is how we learn as children - see my very first post on this page where I referred to how children acquire language - but children have two advantages that I don’t have have here. One is the ability to see the person speak (unless the child is vision-impaired). The second advantage they have, vision-impaired or not, is someone listening and gently correcting and coaching them. We don’t have that here in these lessons. Iestyn and Cat can’t hear me getting it wrong. The result is I’m blissfully unaware I’m getting it wrong, when with just a tiny bit more of a hint - “That sound at the beginning of ddim is the same th sound at the beginning of this and that” - it never would have been a problem at all. I’d never even have started pronouncing it “vim”. That’s why I’m feeling frustrated.

If Aran or Iestyn are reading this thread: please take on board the problems that hearing-impaired people have, and consider giving some kind of visual aid to learning, such as a short video accompanying each lesson with a close-up of the instructor’s mouth pronouncing each new word. Not the entire lesson - just the vocabulary list, with each word pronounced once or maybe twice. You could easily fit the whole vocabulary list for each lesson into a 60-second video.

Anyway. I feel I’ve flogged this horse long enough, and if I’m going to continue the course at all, I need to get off this thread and get back to the actual lessons. I’ll study all the links everyone has provided, I’ll think about whether repeating lessons 1 to 4 will be productive for me (I don’t really want to, but I MUST break this “vim” habit somehow), and we will see what happens. Thank you again to everyone for your suggestions and encouragement.

Really, just use one of the many readily available courses teaching Welsh which give a written form of the words along with a description of the phonetics of Welsh. Most courses do this, along with describing local pronunciation, using the very phonetic Welsh alphabet to describe different dialectical pronunciation. And it is what most learners in Wales I know use. Along with ssiw, this provides a very good use and understanding of Welsh as she is spoke ;-). This is and was my experience, along with that of other Welsh learners I know. Just my pennyworth!

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Now here’s the idea but I actually am not quite aware how much time it’d take for @aran or @Iestyn to do things as this would be their additional work though. But one question first, @Matilda: Do Lesson Guied(s) I’ve posted the link to seam good to you. According to lessons you’ve taken, do they contain most of everything you hear/say wrong? If yes then maybe Iestyn or Aran should just record them and video team should separate them into “lessons” so they’d be equivalent to audio lessons. I presume Aran would know what I mean … tinny little pronunciation guides with each lesson published separately not alltogether like lesson guides.

Does it sound any good? I’d gladly record something like that, but

  1. I’m a foreigner who surely doesn’t have proper accent
  2. I’m not familiar voice to people
  3. My voice is probably horrible to hear - :slight_smile:
  4. I’m not actually aware how clear I do really speak/sound despite there are no English “r” s in my speach since Slovene language is prety “tough”, however I have no problem with “dd”, “th” and even “ll” sounds now … Slovenians are in general very adaptive to almost every sounds they (we) encounter. :slight_smile:

But, if you need someone to talk so you can correct your early “mistakes” I’m voluntearing to go into it via Skype. Not “chit-chat” in Welsh as I’m aware you are not capable of doing this yet, but using sentences you’ve learnt and contain these “mistakes” like ddim, rhywbeth etc … 3 or 5 minutes a week (or longer/shorter periode) might be helpful. However if you feel like I’m not “proffessional” or skilled enough which might very well be true, I surely won’t hold grudges upon that, but what I’m trying to do here is to help you to go on.

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I can sympathise with that! I can’t un-know my glorious mix of gogledd a de! I can’t stop wincing at poor Iestyn’s accent. That wince is not my reason for the following! Honestly!
Where are you? Obviously not in south Wales, as surely then you could get to meet someone who speaks the language! (Even on Gower we had some, mainly folk from y gogledd who’d married southerners!) So why are you fixed on learning South? I truly think that @aran speaks much more clearly and carefully than Iestyn and he sounds his aitches. I believe he, himself. learned the language and knows where difficulties lie. Please give the Northern course a try unless there is a really, really good reason you picked the south!
When @aran is back with us, I’m sure he’ll see what he can do to help you and others who have hearing difficulties, but see how you go with the Northern course! You could always run through the south later!

Nooooooo!!! Don’t do it!!! :wink:
[edited to add- this is a light-hearted, affectionate expression of a ‘north’ versus ‘south’ thing in Wales.]

Really though, it’s all Welsh, and if you do find the northern course clearer, it would be a good resource.

I myself found Iestyn’s natural pronunciation to be a very good resource.

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That’s fine, but you don’t, I presume, have @Matilda 's hearing problems. @aran truly is much clearer and slower for a learner.

Indeed I do not. And that’s why I said if she found it clearer it would be a good resource.

That’s a really generous and helpful offer from Tatjana! And it has made me realise something. I’ve just got hold of a new phone which is capable of using Skype, do if you did want some basic questions such as the above answered when you do a new lesson, I would be more than happy to help you out over comparatively short Skype call in the evenings! (As in, I would think only a comparatively short call would be needed!)
I found using Skype on computer a bit restricting, but by phone it wouldn’t be a problem I think, and I would find it fun! So if you do think that could be of help to you, just send me a pm and I can help you out along with Tatjana. Wouldn’t be a problem!

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@owainlurch thank you for this. I believe you’re more suitable as you live in Wales but I’m still in if needed.

So, you see @Matilda, we’d all be happy if you continue SSi way. And, yes, listen to @aran’s course to determine who you hear better. Northern is a bit different from Southern, but still not that much that you couldn’t switch or learn alongside. :slight_smile:

Gosh, I feel bombarded with questions. I’ll try to answer everyone, and please forgive me if I leave anyone out.

@tatjana and @owainlurch , thank you both for your kind offers to Skype. For now, my plan is to work through all the resources that everyone has suggested, in particular the ones that describe the sounds that the letters of the Welsh alphabet represent and/or that recreate them in video form. If after all that, I’m still having difficulty and feel I need to watch someone speak in real time, I’ll think about Skyping. It may be awkward because my time zone is so far apart from most of you, but we’ll cross that bridge if we come to it.

I’m greatly encouraged by the fact that several of you have said that Welsh pronunciation is very regular and phonetic, much more so than English. To me, written Welsh looks like some mad secret code, deliberately designed to be utterly incomprehensible and unpronounceable to us outsiders! But if my understanding is correct, that’s only because I don’t know the Welsh alphabet, and once I learn it, and learn which sounds the letters represent, I should have no trouble reading unfamiliar words aloud with the correct pronunciation. In other words, it’s not each new word I need to learn how to pronounce - it’s the Welsh alphabet I need to learn. Once I master the alphabet, I’ll know how to pronounce any new word as long as I see it in writing. Is that correct?

@henddraig, you asked where I’m from, and whether I’m particularly fixed on learning South Welsh. I’m Australian. My ancestry is mostly English, German, and Irish in roughly equal parts, with a smidgen each of Scottish, Canadian, and Indian. No Welsh at all. I once plotted my ancestral homelands on a map of the British Isles, and they come from all over the place - from Inverness to Devon, from Cork to Armagh - but the very nearest geographically to Wales that my people come from is Staffordshire, which is still very firmly English. Not even a drop of Welsh ancestry, but enough Irish and Scottish that I still feel fairly Celtic, so I hope you’ll consider me at least a cousin to you. :smile:

So I didn’t choose the Welsh language for ancestral reasons, or because I have anyone Welsh to converse with. In fact, apart from Professor David Crystal who once gave a guest lecture at my university, I don’t think I’ve ever met a Welsh speaker (native or otherwise) in the flesh.

I chose Welsh because I wanted to stretch my mind by tackling a language completely new to me. I do cryptic crosswords, Sudoku, International Linguistics Olympiad problems… basically I like to keep my brain active by solving puzzles and learning new skills.

When you study linguistics, you become exposed to a huge variety of languages, and I have always thought that languages in the Celtic family sound gorgeous. They appeal to me more than any other language family, but I wasn’t terribly fussed about which one I tackled. I simply did some Googling, and stumbled across this SSiW website. If it had been SSiIrish, SSiScotsGaelic, or SSiManx, I’m sure I would have been equally charmed. In fact, I notice that there is a SSiCornish site, and if I’d discovered that first, I’d probably be there instead of here!

But it was Welsh I found first, so here I am. I wasn’t sure whether to choose North or South Welsh, and I read that if I don’t actually have real live Welsh people to converse with, it doesn’t matter which one I choose. So basically I tossed a coin, and it landed on South Wales. I clicked on the Introduction and Lesson 1, was utterly smitten by Iestyn (especially his sense of humour!), and thought - this is the course for me. It’s gentle and non-threatening and well paced.

And I thought I was doing OK. For about two or three lessons, I thought I was hearing and copying the fricative consonants OK. I had to listen very hard, and repeatedly play the sections where the words were introduced, but I did think I was getting them mostly right. Sure, there was the [ll] that I misheard as [ch], but that was no big deal. I reasoned to myself: it’s an uncommon sound in the world’s languages, not found in English, I’m not accustomed to hearing it, and besides, I recognised immediately from Iestyn’s “put your tongue in the L position” that he was talking about a lateral fricative and not a velar one. So no harm done, I thought - I’ll press on.

And then I realised I’d got “beth” wrong - about two lessons after the word was first introduced. It’s “beth”, not “bef”. OK, I thought to myself - maybe I just need to listen harder. And then when the consonant-softening lesson began, I realised that I’d got “prun-ni” wrong too. I’d thought the “pr” was “thr”, and only realised it couldn’t be “thr” because softening “thr” to “br” makes no sense at all phonetically, whereas softening “pr” to “br” makes perfect sense.

So by this time, plagued with increasing doubts and anxiety, no longer able to trust my hearing, I looked up the vocabulary list for the first time. I immediately saw the sound I had been pronouncing for four whole lessons as “vim” (with [v] as in the English word “veal”) was spelled ddim. I googled “ddim pronunciation”, and saw with a sinking heart that every web page said that [dd] is pronounced with the same initial consonant as “this” and “that”.

At that point, ready to give up the whole exercise in despair, I wrote the post at the top of this page. I thought: if I can’t hear these sounds properly, if I’m getting them so far wide of the mark, despite all my careful listening - what point is there in continuing at all? I wouldn’t really be speaking Welsh at all. I’d only be speaking some weird distorted version of it that exists only in my own head. Fortunately, having no real live Welsh person to practise with, I’d probably never be making a public fool of myself - but still, it wasn’t a pleasant thought to know I was getting it so wrong.

I really hadn’t thought my mild hearing loss would be a problem. I manage OK in everyday life. I use subtitles when I watch TV, I remind people to face me when they speak, I sometimes have to tell them to slow down and speak up when they phone me, I ask them to email me or text if possible rather than phoning, and if I’m at a noisy party and struggling to make out their words over the background noise, I either drag them off to a quieter room or I ask them to speak up and speak more slowly. Basically, I make whatever small adjustments are necessary, and then I try not to think about it very much. No point getting upset about what I can’t change, or feeling sorry for myself. After all, there are people coping with hearing impairments far more profound than mine.

I had assumed that with this SSiW audio recording, with the instructors using the clearest possible diction and no background noise, I wouldn’t have a problem. It never even occurred to me that I’d have a problem. It was a real shock to discover I’d been so mistaken.

Anyway, as I said, I’ll study all the resources that people have suggested, and I’ll also listen to at least one of the northern Welsh lessons to see if I find @aran’s fricative sounds easier to understand than Iestyn’s. (Even if for no other reason than to make the acquaintance of @aran!)

Thank you all again for your suggestions and your kind words. I had been on the verge of giving up when I wrote my initial post, but you’ve given me lots of ideas to try, I’ll let you know how I go.

It’s 11:30pm here, and I need to get to bed. Goodnight, everyone.

There are, as in every language, some dialectical differences in pronunciation, and a few words shortened or changed from how they are normally spelled, but the short answer to that question is yes :wink:

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@Matilda,

As a fellow-sufferer from hearing-loss, I’d just like to express my sympathy.
By the sound of it, I think my loss is worse than yours, but I think that, a few years ago, when I started with SSiW, it wasn’t as bad, and I was (usually) able to distinguish the “dd” and “f” (English “v”) sounds. (I’m doing northern, and maybe there is a slight difference there from your experience - Aran speaks slower for one thing).

I also had the advantage that for the most part, I knew Welsh phonetics from an earlier attempt to learn Welsh when I was a lot younger and my hearing was more or less normal, and also I benefit from my wife’s knowledge of the pronunciation, as she learned it at primary school when her family lived in Wales.

One thing I would like to recommend if I may, if you have not done so already, which is to listen to some of the speech-oriented (as opposed to music-oriented) programmes on Radio Cymru.
You won’t understand much at first, and I would suggest that at first, you should not even try. Just get used to the sound of the language in small doses: 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes at a time, for example.

And listen, really listen. Close your eyes if it helps (it helps me). Not while driving, obviously. :slight_smile: Best done somewhere where you can guarantee peace quiet and solitude for the requisite time.

What I tend to do is start with the schedule:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radiocymru/programmes/schedules#on-now

and work through it, picking out programmes that might be of interest. I tend to go for discussion programmes. Dylan Iorwerth is a good one, although he talks rather fast:

I notice there is also an EU Referendum broadcast tonight…that might actually be quite interesting for the purpose because they will probably speak clearly. You don’t have to take any notice of what they actually say! (Just the way that they say it).

If you can - and it will be hard at first, no question - see if you can pick out individual words, or see if you can work out where a sentence or phrase begins or ends. (As a linguist, that will be up your street, I imagine).

Now here’s a lovely programme, because they speak very clearly:

And the cadeirydd, chairman (who is himself a bard I believe) usually repeats what the competing bards have said, picking out bits he especially likes.

Well, give it a try anyway, just a bit at a time, as I said. Let the language infuse itself into you, drop by drop.

○○○○

Apart from all that, I was going to ask you: presumably as a linguist, you know the IPA?
This is something I’ve always been fascinated by, but at the same time, a little bit afraid of.
some people say it’s easy to learn, but I’ve never found it so, although it’s always sounded as though it should be useful if one could learn it. I can never keep the meaning of those little symbols in my head.

Do you have any tips for learning it, e.g. are there any good books about it?
Thanks.

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@Matilda I’ve only skimmed down through this post so I may have missed it, but did you say whereabouts you are in Australia? We have some very competent and advanced new Welsh speakers in different parts of Australia who I’m sure would be very happy to meet up and give you a hand. @louis @Karla @elizabeth_jane are three examples that spring to mind. And if you can’t meet in person, they’re in the right time zone to Skype with you.

And if you’re doing the original Course 1 (as opposed to the new Challenges) can I just say that those beginning lessons were recorded on very primitive equipment while Iestyn and Cat were travelling around Europe. I don’t think anyone imagined at that stage that SSiW would become the worldwide phenomenon that it has. The recording setup is totally different and way more professional now, but the emphasis is on producing new material rather than going back and re-recording the earlier ones, so hang in there. The quality does improve.

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You’re welcome …

Of course. This is the best decision right now. My idea actually comes from the imagination that you might need someone live infront of you who’d be able to give you instant feedback.

Well, sorry, but I’m alnost sure you’ll have another “difficulties” apart from pure pronunciation. There will come the time when you’d actually need to have at least one speaking partner with who you’d be able to converse in order to maintain the already posessed knowledge …

Better don’t ask when I go to sleep every day so it might be not such awkward situation for me at all … So, this should not be particular problem at all, well not for me at least.

@seren could say a lot about that, I’m sure …

Don’t worry, “there” is still “here”. We’re all one big SSi family no matter what language we study. It’s all here on this site and in the future there are plans to be more and some things could happen quite fast once @aran comes back from intensive Welsh bootcamp. So, as soon as you’d posted something elswhere on the forum (being it “Other languages”, “Spanish” or “Welsh” we’d spot you, don’t worry … :slight_smile:

O, ja …

So did I, believe me … However it’s good you’ve discovered your “mistakes” now at the very beginning because with lessons it comes more of those “tricky” sounds/words like “Byddi di’n …” (you will (singular)) and “Fyddi di ddim yn …” (you will not (singular)) where I at first had hard time to determine is it “th” or “v” sound at the beginning … etc, etc … This comes in Lesson 6.1 and mostly 6.2 and for many of us those two lessons were particularly hard. I don’t say this to frighten you but to allert you to be prepared as I believe here you’ll have to give yourself a bit room to breath and considder every single progress as an acheavement. After that hard work it comes the reward … Bonus lesson 6 which is really fun to go with …

Yup … that’s probably quite common thing we’ve encountered and I played with the thought how many people would reall ynotice if I don’t mind too much when I can’t remember thet bef is actually beth … I’ve set myself to an mend immediatelly but didn’t succeed many times. It really takes time but if constantly trying it comes to its place at one particular point so here’s actually no big harm at such early stage. Here will be plenty of time to correct mistakes and do new ones until the end of the Course 1. So don’t torture yourself too much, this doesn’t do any good, believe me. Many can tell here I did just the same, torturing myself for every single wrong thing I’ve done until I at one point have realized I’d do much better not beating myself that much …

And … at the end of my “novel” … I agree with @mikeellwood, @owainlurch and @Deborah-SSi completely. They all helped me (with many other members of this friendly forum) a lot (uhhh they don’t even know how much …) when I had my own problems and wanted to appear as the proper queen of my “Castle of perfectionism” only to realize I just have to burn that castle down and throw my fake crown away … :slight_smile:

Ooo, yes, please do! :slight_smile:

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Hi Matilda,

Liz here. I live in Melbourne. Where are you situated? I am always happy to help, Skype, write etc. I have always looked up the word list after every lesson. I never used them in lessons. I totally and wholeheartedly embrace the SSiW method. But I was always curious to see them written. If you have a linguistic background and an understanding of different letters making different sounds in different alphabets, you may find it helpful in an ongoing sense.

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Snap!! And I assure you I have terrible trouble hearing what Iestyn is saying, i,e, th, f, v, dd!! But I know in most cases, because I’m trying to recall what was once learned and since lost!! I only realised how much easier @aran is to hear (largely because he speaks more slowly), because my Cymraeg is 2/3 south and 1/3 north!! So, I switched north when I heard words I didn’t know in circumstances when another word sprang to mind!
To be honest, Fach, yattering away at speed is a naughty southern habit! One day, I was on a bus in Abertawe (Swansea) and some Americans got on and one asked for a destination (Mumbles). The conductor (long since replaced by driver-only) said, “Sorry love, we’re turning round at Singleton, you’ll have to catch another bus there!”
If I knew phonetics I could represent the actual sounds, but I couldn’t represent the speed and the slithering together of the words! The poor lady understood not one word! I repeated word for word what he had said more slowly, with a tiny change, “We are turning round before Mumbles..” and she understood perfectly!

Same here. On such topics, a five minute Skype call where you can get instant feedback, hearing and practice can be worth hours on the forum! And I’m pretty flexible with times too if you ever want to take advantage of that. But I understand what you are saying, and here’s hoping you get back on track to enjoying the journey to being a Welsh speaker!

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Hi @Matilda!

I’m late to the party on this one, and as always, you have already received some brilliant answers and help from people who have already done what you are trying to do - the best source of help, and worth far more than my advice!

I will add one thing to the mix, though. I have run a number of bootcamps now, over the last 6 years (since SSiW started ), and there two thing that have become very obvious to me, and that are relevant to your “problem”.

A lot of our SSiW learners, at some point in their career, have got some, in smoe cases many, of the consonant sounds mixed up. This is not so much to do with poor hearing - although obviously, hearing loss will not help! - but more to do with the non-visual nature of the course, and the fact that the sounds are so close together.

The flip side of this is that, in real life, it is very difficult to hear that the sounds are wrong, because you have all the context and expectation working with you to understand. If you said to me “Dwi vim yn hoffi siarad”, it is highly unnlikely that I would hear the “v” of vim as anything but the “dd” (voiced th) that it “should” be.

That’s not to say that we don’t care that you can’t get it right straight away, but it does mean that you shouldn’t be concerned about getting it right. The vowel sounds are far more important to how natural your Welsh sounds - the consonants are only vital if you’re reading strict metre poetry

The other thing is this: In spotting that someone is saying a word “wrong”, I find that the students who have learnt through SSiW nearly always find it easier to correct than students who have learnt through more traditional methods. I think this is something to do with the aural method of learning. When someone learns from reading, then their eyes control the process, and the eyes have far more credibility with the brain than the ears do. As such, when you hear something that is different to what you think you have seen, the brain is far less happy about correcting it. In my experience, the correction of the occasional v / dd or ff / th, etc is actually quite an easy process.

Have you seen the lesson guides that are available via the FAQs (see top of the page)? They cover all the first 2 courses of SSiW, and will give you a headstart in getting the consonants right. However, please do leave it til the end of the lesson before looking at them. As an Australian, you are used to very different vowel sounds to the Welsh words, and you may find the words getting ingrained in a strong Oz accent if you try reading them first.

Other than that, though, it sounds like you are getting on just fine with the course. Remember that a single SSiW lesson includes so much material and practice that you are learning far more quickly than you would expect on any other course. This is one of the reasons that the problems appear quickly and in numbers. That’s not a reason to get disheartened - it’s a reason to push on and enjoy the progress!

Enjoy!

Iestyn

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I will disagree with my esteemed colleague Owainlurch on this point, to a certain degree, and it’s one of the reasons that I encourage you not to pine too much right now for learning “the rules of Welsh pronunciation.”

Yes, you will eventually know how to pronounce new words that you read. No, this won’t happen early on. Why? Because there are vowels that have different sounds in different contexts (“u” being a good example, and “y”), and some significant exceptions to rules about word stress. There are – as in lots of other languages – some very very common words that are just plain Not Pronounced Like They Are Written By Any Possible Principles Of Pronunciation. Further, there are North/South differences in those vowel patterns. The good news is that SSIW will get you picking up these patterns instinctively over time – and based on my observations, more quickly than people who were confronted with lists of pronunciation rules and exceptions.

By the way . . . because Welsh is a heavily-accented language, you’ll find that getting the rhythm and stresses right matters LOTS more to sounding “authentic” than mixing up very-close consonant sounds like “v” and “th”! That’s one of the big pluses to learning in an audio-based way. :slight_smile:

Edited to add: I don’t mean to sound unsympathetic! I’m teaching myself Norwegian right now. I’m focused on copying pronunciation on the audio I’m using as much as possible, because there are LOTS of very basic words that don’t follow the basic rules of pronunciation of the Norwegian alphabet that are given at the front of any textbook / dictionary. So, when I hear a word and have no clue if I’m copying it correctly, I look it up, am frequently surprised, and . . . moove on. Seems to be working so far!

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Hello Tahl! Good to see you about on the forum! Is always instructive to read what you have to say!
[/quote]

ecause there are vowels that have different sounds in different contexts (“u” being a good example, and “y”), and some significant exceptions to rules about word stress.
[/quote]

Though Welsh is not completely “one symbol to one sound” phonetic, the vowel differences you speak of are shown in spelling (where they appear in the word and what letter follows them). The exceptions to word stress are very few indeed.(and still generally follow some obscure spelling patterns anyway!)

I’m not sure I’m with you here- sometimes words are spelled as they would be pronounced on poetry, or as the standard version of words. But the spelling system remains consistent.

My experience is different to yours - of the people I know who have been and are determined to learn Welsh, the fact that Welsh has a spelling system far more phonetic than most languages has seemed to be a distinct advantage to them. Though I believe that Ssiw is a marvelous resource, the fact they have taken advantage of other resources on top of that, knowing the alphabet early being one of those things, seems to have been an advantage. But all I can say with any degree of certainty is that it certainly was for me.

Anyway, for what is worth me saying, it’s alwsys marvelous to have input on subjects like this from someone of your standard who had learned Welsh!

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