How Long Before Welsh Becomes Fun?

Welsh General / Questions
#21

It’s hard to know what to recommend because (just my point of view) no matter how easy the language is, if you’re not ‘into’ the subject it’ll probably be hard to keep your mind tuned in. Of course, it’s worth checking the listings to see if anything on a subject you already like is coming up, and prioritise watching/listening to that.
Although varying dialects in programmes can sometimes throw you, news and current affairs (in any format) are going to be more challenging for learners simply because they use more formal language - there is a lot of “It was reported today that…” kind of stuff said in a way you wouldn’t hear on the street and because you don’t come across it as frequently, it takes ages to recognise and stick in your head (in my experience!).
Perhaps a look through some Welsh clips or songs on YouTube could point you in a direction you don’t mind following, too.

My main piece of advice might be just to have Radio Cymru or S4C (or online stuff like YouTube) on but not go looking for things to understand - just let it wash over you and let the words you recognise find you instead. Eventually (and it kind of sneaks up on you) you’ll realise you are understanding things after all, but it does take patience - far more patience than perfectionism :wink:

A couple of final observations - 1. even having played in and worked with Welsh bands for many years, I still don’t understand some of the lyrics!
2. We’re currently filming a second series of ‘Deuawdau’ with Rhys Meirion (and guests!) if anyone’s interested :slight_smile: (not one of the things I’m personally involved in though, so can’t tell you much more than that!)

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#22

Thanks Siaron. I agree with you. With Italian I was kind of fortunate because there are Italian singers I love (my favourite singer bar none is Antonello Venditti), I like a lot of Italian cinema (my favourite actor is Roberto Benigni) and I am obsessed with Inter (and a big fan of the Inter fan-commentator Roby Scarpini) so I had/have a lot to key into.

Similar with French. I enjoy the Top 14 and follow Clermont and have an interest in PSG as I lived in France for a short period many years ago and went to PSG matches.

Watching sport you do exactly what you said. You’re so involved in the match that you don’t really take notice of the commentary though you are subconsciously understanding it. Then in down periods of play you realise you actually know what’s being said. Same with music as it’s very easy to let it wash over you. I didn’t understand Laura Pausini for a good while but still enjoyed her. Even now I don’t understand all she’s singing but a lot of Italian friends say the same as she doesn’t sing everything properly. Venditti does, but even his language is poetic in the sense that he will use a masculine rather than feminine if it fits better, for e.g. he sings his father was alta in one song where his father was actually alto… but it fits the song better to have an a sound than an o. It takes a long time to get the gist of that.

All in all, I’m probably being hard on my Welsh. One thing in Romance languages is they all have what I call “handles”, i.e. words which are so similar to English you can grab them for help rather than drowning in the ones you don’t.

My motivation for learning Welsh though is/was patriotism. I’m a nationalist (both from a Welsh and Irish point-of-view) - I deliberately use a lower case n because I’m a soft nationalist, not a hard one (think Plaid Cymru (soft) versus the EDL (hard)) - and hold no truck for racist Nationalism. That was grand at the start but I’m probably coming to the stage where I need a bit more than that. French, and definitely Italian, I am learning/I learnt because I am fascinated by their cultures, more so Italian. I like Welsh culture and am proud of it but I already understand Welsh culture as I am Welsh so it’s perhaps not as exciting.

There’s some good and helpful ideas here though so thanks to all for your input. Part of me says concentrate on French, as that’s what I’m enjoying, another part of me says keep going with Welsh, first because I’ve already put in a lot of effort, second because it’s a shame I don’t know my own language and third because, as I plan on making my life in Ireland it may be a gateway to Irish at a later stage.

#23

I don’t want to put you off, but if you think Welsh is hard… :scream:
Seriously though, although Irish is another Celtic language, it’s a whole other ball game to Welsh! (but then again, the more languages you have under your belt, the easier it might be)

#24

Firstly, @siaronjames, diolch! That was very helpful!
@andrew_6, Eisteddfod Genedlaethol is always covered very well on S4C, so you might like to watch some of that! It is what, with Y Sioe Frenhinol, I started watching to help with the hiraeth when I came to Yr Alban! I am a long term Nationalist, but NOT with any of the Fascist connections! I just want the best for my country and for nobody to rip us off! I do hope you find some things on S4C you value, then you may sign the petition for proper funding!

#25

You’ve had a lot of good advice, and some good points made about the expectation of progress. I think whether it is fun is a separate question. If it’s not fun at all, then I think there’s maybe a case for concentrating on French for now and coming back to Welsh later (I don’t know if there’s evidence about the best way to learn more than one language, my gut feeling is that there is something to be said for immersing yourself in one at at a time - at least that way you are not directly comparing progress).

My experience of French and Welsh has been almost opposite - I spent a year on French, pretty passively, and at the end of the year went to France and could barely say or understand a thing! With Welsh I can feel so much more progress in just 6 weeks, and because I am enjoying it, I am putting in more time, and have found better resources to interest me. But my grounding in Welsh was much more solid as I was in a (supposed) bilingual stream at primary - really it was nothing of the sort and we all had to go right back to beginner lessons at high school (grr) but at least we had an early introduction from Welsh speaking teachers, and I have never found Welsh grammar, etc difficult the way French is.

If you like current affairs do you know about http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymrufyw where you can click the vocab button to be able to look up the words in the news stories? A few times I’ve struggled through a few items at lunch time, and then the same stories have cropped up on the Radio/Pigion/Heno later. Also, with Pigion I find I am much more likely to understand some of it if I look at the the word lists on the website first - just knowing what the story is about makes a big difference to what I can pick out. I use overcast podcast app, and to start with I also reduced the playback speed.

Kate

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#26

Nope, they’re full reviews of everything you’ve covered up to the relevant point, in changing contexts, and at double speed from challenge 10 onwards. They’re a hugely valuable part of the jigsaw.

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#27

Thanks for all the advice everyone.

In terms of learning two languages at once, the advice I’ve read is that they need to be two sufficiently different ones that they don’t lead to mistakes from crossover. For example, learning French and Italian at the same time is a big no no because of the similarity. French and Welsh is supposedly OK because they are very different. Maybe that advice presumed that the person was learning two languages from scratch though, whereas as you’ve pointed out I had a significant headstart.

In terms of how we are taught Welsh at school, I thought it was just horrendous. In my area, kids were very demotivated by Welsh because it’s a very Anglophone area (Flintshire) and made next to no progress though the same kids often flourished in German or French because the purpose was more obvious. The Welsh teachers were very dour too and their idea of motivation was to tell us we were Welsh so we had to learn it and that was that. They particularly hated those of us who did well at other languages whilst at school (I was good at German back then).

There’s a lot of good advice here and I’ll have to give time to rereading it and devising my own plan. At the moment, Welsh feels like a chore but I’m also conscious that if I give up now I’m never likely to pick it back up again. Quitting would mean I lost any value I have gained so far as language quickly leaves you if not practiced. I need therefore to have a good look at the resources you’ve suggested and see if I can come up for something. At least if that fails I can leave it behind knowing I gave it my all.

#28

Hi Andrew,

I wouldn’t worry too much on the reading side of things.

I’m at the level where conversationally… I can sit down for hours with people chatting and they don’t know that I’m a learner, they either think I picked the language up ages ago - or I’m a bona fide/since birth Welsh speaker.

But in terms of reading, I’m a bit futher behind. Welsh learners from Wales will understand my predicament because I find magazines like “Lingo Newydd” (a magazine based at learners) far too easy, yet I find “proper, grown up” magazines like “Golwg” (a current affairs/whats going on in Wales sort of magazine) a bit too hard for me to ‘really’ enjoy.

Radio is always tough, because as people have alluded to - you don’t get the visual clues of body language etc. Admittedly, I’m a terrible listener - I don’t even listen properly to people in English, and this is really what we all do. We listen to people saying sentences, we pick out most of the words and our brain puts them together.

I mean, I’m guilty of this more than any - when my wife says something and I seem like I’m glazing over - and she says “Were you even listening? What did I just say?” You never reply with the exact same line do you? It’s always a summing up of what was said - I think that (although I’ve explained it terribly) is how I describe the Welsh listening process for me.

TV is great, but you have to prepared to struggle with some voices. I’m a hwntw (South dialect), so that’s what I’ve learned to listen to - one of my friends in Aber has an extremely harsh and extremely fast Gogledd accent, and when she talks to me it feels like I’m a Day One learner again sometimes.

What I’m trying to say before I blabbered, is that a lot of this is to be expected. We only learn a finite amount of words here before we graduate SSiW and go off into the big world - where we’ll start hearing words that the course didn’t cover, and for a while every time you hit one of these worlds you’ll feel a little overwhelmed - but trust me, it really does all come together.

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#29

The bit where you say you babbled is actually a very fine summing up of the language process and a great motivational tool for people feeling down about their language learning. For example, my wife will often say we’re doing x, at place y at z time. Then she’ll say to me you’re not listening, I’ll say I am, we’re doing x, place y. She will then say what time and I’ll invariably say you didn’t say when. If we can’t fully comprehend listening in L1 why do we expect to be 100% in L2, 3, 4 etc? The learners magazine you mentioned sounds interesting for me anyway.

#30

I’m a bit like you in that I have “competing” language interests, my main “other” language being German, but I’ve played around in several other languages.

However, I’d say that at the time I started with SSiW, I was in a position (and this was a mental thing as much as anything) to be able to lay those other languages aside, and concentrate 100% (as far as language time was concerned), which I probably did for at least a full year. In that time I completed the old Course 1 and most of Course 2 I think. And by the end of that year (or so) I felt I was ready to start reading, which I did with the aid of learner-specific books like the “Nofelau Nawr” series (which you can often get cheap in Amazon marketplace). (Many other suggestions in the forum if you use the search tool). Rading that sort of book certainly added to the fun for me, and it also gave a sense of accomplishment.

I’d think that “Y Cymro” might be a stretch for a learner, but maybe “Golwg” might be more accessible. Or maybe “Lingo Newydd”. See below for subscription page:

I’d say it took me at least 18 months to 2 years to feel comfortable listening to Radio Cymru, and I have to add that I had/have the luxury of time, being retired. I am also comfortable with listening to radio (actually I only listened via iPlayer or from the podcasts, rather than live), partly a generational thing, since I grew up in a house without a TV set until I was nearly 13 or so, so radio is my “first love” in terms of broadcasting. But it also means that you have to listen, which is pretty consistent with the SSiW approach. It’s a discipline which brings its own rewards.

But to get back to the 100% thing, here is one suggestion:

Can you devote your language time into relatively long time blocks, say 1 month at a time?
For one month devote 100% of your language time to Welsh, then next month go to French, and so on? (maybe even longer…3 months?). This need not go on for ever. Once you’ve got to a certain level in Welsh, then I think it might be easier to share it with French more easily.

You could then try just a day of Welsh, followed by a day of French, or something like that.
I actually don’t find it all that easy to divide my language time among different languages, but some people do.

Well, whatever you do, pob lwc! wrth gwrs.

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#31

Thanks Mikeel, I will certainly look at the resources you suggested. I don’t think for me personally that I would be a good idea to knock French on the head for a period of time. I think it’s a great idea which would work for a lot of people but I think I would resent whatever “took French away” as I enjoy it so much.

I might try to finish level two, then get a copy of Lingo Newydd and read it for a few weeks as a break from hard study then go back to level three when I feel more enthused. I’m going to give S4C’s news programme a go as well at 1pm today and see how I get on, probably with subtitles.

Does anyone know if you can use subtitles on S4C Clic?

#32

Oh absolutely. Not every programme has them. But some programmes also have them in Welsh, as well as English, which I think is a fantastic boon for learners.

The popular soaps like “Pobol y Cwm” (mostly southern Welsh) and “Rownd a Rownd” (mostly northern Welsh) have them in Welsh and English.

BTW, if you concentrate on news, you might tend to get slightly more formal Welsh. The soaps are at the other end of the formality scale. Other programmes are somewhere in between, by and large. Maybe look through the schedule on the website and see if anything catches your eye. It’s got to be something that would interest you I think. I make an exception for soaps (which I hate in English, but more than tolerate in Welsh). But soaps aren’t quite as easy as one might think, as the language can be very colloquial and non-standard (whatever that might be, in a Welsh context…).

Chwarae teg. I see what you mean.

#33

Just watched the news on S4C. No wonder I couldn’t make head nor tail of the Newyddion ar Radio Cymru, I could barely understand the English subtitles (slight exaggeration but you will get my drift). I had a fair stab at the weather with the visual clues though I think weather could be in Swahili and with visual clues understandable.

Soaps are a disaster for learners in my opinion. Take EastEnders and Coronation Street, two vastly different accents and dialects and they don’t speak properly either.

#34

Yes, news-speak is like that! Perhaps a go at one of the magazine programmes like Heno (an early evening programme, but available as ‘catch-up’ on clic) might be better - a mix of dialects depending on who they’re featuring, of course, but hopefully it should be easier to understand than the news.

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#35

“Bore Da” on a Sunday morning is very good also, as that programme presents the highlights of the weeks “Heno” and “Prynhawn Da” programmes - mostly the stories that they think learners may benefit from.

…also if you watch “Bore Da” this Sunday (or next Sunday - I’m not sure yet). You may see me!

I’m going to chatting with the presenter Alun Williams on Friday about my experiences of learning the language. When I find out when its on I’ll let everyone know.

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#36

Agreeing with Nicky re- Bore Da. I was going to point to both Dal Ati programs on Sunday mornings, both designed for learners. Content varies, but fast forward is there to avoid, say, make-up tips for girls! (I am too old to gild the lily any longer!) If you have children or a mind that enjoys childish things, there is always Cyw which collects many of the childrens’ programs and shows them early morning, Saturday and Sunday! (i am probably in my second or third childhood and enjoy such things as Hafod Haul and Octonots! Of course, vocabulary is more limited as children have had less time to learn vast numbers of words! ‘Ti fi a Cyw’ is a short program in which children (one at a time) teach an adult Cymraeg!)

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#37

Andrew,

Not sure if I really have anything new to add that hasn’t been said in this thread, but maybe you need encouragement, in which case the more the better!
I learned both French and Latin at school for 5 years.
I have been trying to learn Welsh now for almost 3 years. Difficult, as I live in Israel and there’s nobody around me (maybe for hundreds of miles) with whom I can talk in that language. It’s going slowly. A couple of years ago I tried learning Italian. I soon dropped it, purely for reasons of time. But what a pleasure it was…With English as my mother tongue, and with O-level French and Latin under my belt (and you really do learn faster at that age than in middle age), it was so easy. Italian is so much closer to those languages than is Welsh. I hope to go back to Italian some day when I get time, and I’m sure it’ll be easy.
I don’t believe that any language is inherently more difficult to learn than others. Kids probably start to speak at the same age all around the world. (I’d be interested to know if this is correct.) But it’s clear that with your background you’ll find French much easier than Welsh. My guess is that were you a Gaelic-speaker, you’d be speaking excellent Welsh by now.
So take it in context. I can’t comment on whether you should continue learning Welsh if you’re really not enjoying it. But don’t get discouraged. And good luck.

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#38

I totally feel for you. I’m a native Welsh speaker who is learning French and Russian. Your difficulties are very common. Mostly likely, you are learning Welsh from material written by native English speakers. I’ve checked quite a few learn Welsh language materials and it’s surprisingly difficult to find material written by people’s whose actual native language is Welsh! Most Welsh learners are unaware of the issues that can come along with this. I’m not saying they’re really bad, I’m just saying that sometimes I find the things they teach or say quite odd, or just don’t sound right to native speakers. They then pass on those things to you where they might cause confusion.

Also, a lot of formal material is still, well, too formal! It just doesn’t match spoken Welsh! Drives me crazy! I know so many learners that are so put off learning Welsh because of this!

I’m not sure if you will find it fun, because my blog is to do with my interests or experiences, but I’ve tried to plug this gap that learner have. It’s probably too advanced for you, but you will certainly find the explanations of contractions very, very useful!

https://learnwelsh.tumblr.com/

#39

If that’s in response to the original poster, then yes, he is - he says he’s on Lesson 9 of the second SaySomethinginWelsh course, which was written by a native English speaker… :slight_smile:

But this might not be the best possible place for you to tell people that working from materials written by a native English speaker is a problem…

Because this is the support forum for the SaySomethinginWelsh course, and most of our learners are quite happy with their results with us…:slight_smile:

We’re quite happy for other Welsh tutors to offer their services on here (although we always think it’s a nice touch when people ask for permission before posting commercial offerings) - one of our favourites is @mererid - she came in a little ‘salesy’, but after feedback, she became a very valuable and welcome member of the community.

You might find her first thread interesting:

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#40

Haha. Reading it now. Faux-pas face palm time!

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