Erik Gunnemark and Amorey Gethin's book, and related articles

[Since I know there a few other language / linguistics “wonks” on here… :slight_smile: Hope it’s of interest ]

Someone on the language-learners.org forum mentioned Erik Gunnemark’s book, which I had never heard of. I went googling and found that it is called:

“The Art and Science of Learning Languages” (by A. Gethin and E.V. Gunnemark, Intellect, 1996)

and is co-authored with Amorey Gethin .

His website is:
http://www.kebi.se/erikgunnemark

Amorey Gethin’s website is:
http://www.lingua.org.uk

Sadly, both have now passed on, but perhaps we don’t need to be too sad, as it seems they led long and satisfying lives, and have left a very useful legacy behind for us language-learners.

I have not of course read the book since I have only just heard of it, but it is now on my wish-list.

There are some fascinating articles on Amory Gethin’s website.

http://www.lingua.org.uk/evg.minis.html

This one is basically an extract from the book:
http://www.lingua.org.uk/geirl.html

Learning Vocabulary, by Amorey Gethin and Erik Gunnemark:
http://www.lingua.org.uk/voc.html

A critical reply to the above article from someone who confesses he is a dear friend of Amory Gethin:
http://www.lingua.org.uk/vocdb.html

It seems that Amorey Gethin was a controversial figure in the world of linguistics. He wrote a book called “Antilinguistics” in 1990, which gives us a clue as to his views. I won’t go into any more of that as it’s getting a bit off-topic, but you can find some interesting stuff about him via google.

Getting back to the book & related articles, I am not sure if the methods that they espouse are fully compatible with the SSi approach, but I did note several things that resonated quite well. See what you think.

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Thanks for sharing Mike, some challenging reading and ideas here :smile:

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Very interesting, thank you!

“It is difficult to believe that things like group and pair work and role play are really recommended because teachers truly think and have actually found that they are better and more effective ways of teaching languages. Reason, too, suggests that they are not sound methods.”

Very subjective and something I strongly disagree with. Controlled and free speaking practice are something that make the biggest difference, in my opinion. Yes, it’s artificial, yes, it’s simplified conversation - but students of art don’t begin by painting “The night watch”, they begin by drawing simple shapes.

“They should then try to talk as much as possible in the foreign language outside the classroom to native speakers.”

There’s a whole thread here about which problems there can be when talking to native speakers - one that @Mererid created. They can speak too quickly, with a very thick accent, they can use words and shortenings you aren’t familiar with yet, slang characteristic of their geographical location. Even I, a grown-up woman with a most extravert character, burst in tears after a conversation with a native. Let alone more sensitive, shy people.
And then, again, it leaves out those numerous people who are learning languages around the world - not for immigration, but for other reasons - to do business, to understand the families of their beloved ones, to watch films and read books, and so on - I do needs analysis with every new student and I could post a very long and interesting list of reasons why people who are not planning to move to the UK/US/etc or visit them, are learning English.

As I can see, this is a very extreme critique of the “communicative approach” which is not done well - I mean, when it’s used to waste students’ time by chatting and not explaining anything ever. But this is not very often seen, except for some classes held by natives with no linguistic education (they’re becoming less common now). All classes that my colleagues and i, for example, give, are a combination of the task-based (using adequate language to perform a certain task, for example, gossip:), grammar-translation and conversation-driven teaching.

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Gethin’s articles are not really subjective, I think it is very clear that he is being more objective than advocates of Communicative language teaching, because they don’t have scientific evidence it works, and they base their ideas about language teaching on their feeling or interactions between people, rather than objective rational reasoning. Your example of bursting into tears might be an instance of that.

Gethin starts by stating that he believes languages can be learned but cannot be taught. This idea is not so strange or unique, it is essentially the same as Steven Krashen’s hypothesis that conscious classroom learning, cannot be converted into language learning, and output which is subconscious. Gethin believed we learn by language input that we direct, by choosing what to read or hear, so we can do it at our own pace, and this is what Steven Krashen says when he talks about comprehensible input is what leads to language learning. Output, or speaking, can only demonstrate what we already know, in other words it is a performance test. So we can’t learn language by practicing speaking, because that part of the brain is not where language is learned.(monitor hypothesis, affective filter) In stressful situations we can’t even do that well, and being asked to follow scripted lessons in a class would seem very stressful if you are paying for it and expect a grade. Krashen has recently revised his theories to make clearer what he meant and now he says reading for pleasure is the real way to learn.

You might think your classrrom group or pariwork activities are some kind of free form discussion activities where students can relax and say what they want, in a low stress situation, but they really are given topics, and scripted and basically told what to say and monitored, and this is all a performance sitiuation. Using language for output. Gethin says this is a task and a test , and he says it is immorral to impose endless tests on students. Given that there is no end or real goal in these communicative speaking activities, the stress of being in an endless learning cycle is an imposition. The classes are like lab sessions and require students to be there, and they are long classes , sometimes several days a week. Gethin says the culture of lessons, and more lessons is the problem. He is writing about a whole systemic problem. A culture of the wrong kind of lessons that trap students where they can’t really learn and it takes their money, and the only way they can learn is when they escape these programs.

Gethin’s theory is we learn, by observing language in use by reading and trying to guess meaning or look up words. No one can do that for you but yourself. Again this is not so strange. Recent studies have shown that students who self direct their language learning by reading and other means, learn faster and do better on a test of comprehension and knowledge than students taught in CLT programs with a teacher. It has been proven many times. In addition there is not evidence to say that students in pairwork or group work with a teacher learn better or faster than students who study only through language input or self directed reading for pleasure. I suppose Gethin sounds extreme or subjective because he is the only person arguing against and entire industry of mass marketted materials and lessons which are all based on CLT. But studies that he had no involvement with also back his ideas.

There are also studies to show that students in group and pairwork CLT lessons end up learning each other’s mistakes, and can never rise above the level of the others in the class because they can not correct each other’s mistakes and convert that to knowledge. These are studies with elementary and high school students.

Finally your analogy about learning to paint is interesting because you use it to make a case for how we can teach language , by slowng it down and giving it to students in simplified forms. This is appealing, but it’s not how we learn to paint, we learn to paint by observing nature and continously sketching until the brain can catch up with the eye and the hand can catch up with the brain, and it all becomes coordinated, but ultimately it is in the act of the artist observing light. The teacher can’t break it down into simple parts. for the student to master and put together. It has to be ultimatly put together into a coordinated effort by only the student and only by themselves.

Similarly, the language teacher can not slow down the perception of the students’ language learning mind or adjust it in any way, or even anticipate where it is. The student can only observe language on their own. It is all internal to the mind of the student. Gethin said we learn language by observing it in use, and that is similar to how we learn to paint by observing what we see. No one else can do the observing or make the connections for us, according to Gethin.
The whole thing comes down to how you believe students learn language and how much a teacher can do for students. Gethin stressed that his theory was not for beginning students. I talked with Gethin a lot about this and he said that in the early stages of development, they need a teacher for basic vocabulary, basic grammar and to get started. For the first year or so. His articles are really about advanced or adult programs once students are able to read and do basic decoding and know the basic grammar. he was mainly concerned about the kind of programs for immigrants at Universities, or high school ESL. Gethin was a self taught language learner and used the example of polyglots to show that the way languages are learned is self taught and has to be self taught for it to ever work. He was just speaking out for the common good because teachers did not believe it was their job to teach students how to self direct their language learning. There has been some movent in that direction of learner autonomy in recent years but that is in conflict with communicative teaching methods in my opinion.

I am not an advocate of communicative language learning and I never said I was. But language is interaction and feelings are part of this interaction. I have had several students whose knowledge of grammar and vocabulary were excellent - and who were hardly able to say a word or two to the natives. I can’t show you “recent studies” to prove how numerous such students are, but, to me, it proves that speaking is a skill that has to be taught: taught by providing tasks based on situations students are likely to deal with and by providing grammar and lexis that are relevant to complete the tasks. I frankly have no idea which immoral tasks with no real goals you are referring to. Every speaking task assigned to students has a goal and provides them with a possibility to assess whether they succeeded or not. One might argue that this is just an imitation of real-life situations - but honestly, we deal with “imitations” and “drills” every single day of our lives. I doubt there is anyone who would believe you can become win a tennis champion without playing tennis at least every week, but there seem to be so many people who are ready to believe that you can become proficient in speaking a foreign language without actually speaking it.

There are so many unknowns in this one sentence that it is really impossible to argue with. What were the test groups: age, motivation, level of exposure? What was their initial level? What were these obscure “other means”? What were their goals?

I am absolutely convinced that an advanced adult learner, who has solid motivation, good exposure, good learning and social skills, a great deal of self-discipline and free time should not waste any money and any time at all on language classes. More than that, I am also convinced that, starting with B1, it is better for learners to work with an individual tutor. However, the reality is that somebody has to teach those lower-level students and, at this level, language classes are a good effective way of learning. (By the way, individual learning and encouraging learner autonomy is and has been for some years a part of almost every ELT curriculum, beginning with A1 level.)

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“Gethin’s theory is we learn, by observing language in use by reading and trying to guess meaning or look up words.”

Based on my own experience I would disagree quite strongly. In terms of relative ease I find learning to read and write a language much easier than conversing.

I have learned several languages by reading first and find that it has slowed down, even inhibited, the process of conversing.

Following my experience with SSiW I have now tried learning languages the other way around - learning to converse first, deliberately delaying reading, and then only after mastering conversation doing some reading to help add vocabulary. I find the reading even then only partly effective unless I add a “reading aloud”" element. The reading is, of course, enjoyable.

For me - and I do not mean to denigrate anyone else’s method of learning - I find the SSi “conversation first method” so compelling that I would venture to say it is more effective by several times than anything else I have tried. To be specific it may take me three months to reach a certain level with SSi which by other methods has taken me four to eight times as long.

Perhaps we all learn differently but for me while learning by reading is not as difficult as other methods, and is hugely enjoyable, it is relatively ineffective. It may play a role but not a critical one.

Justin

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That would be after quite some time! I’m not sure I’ll ever get there… :blush:

I found reading to be a great source for tremendously increasing vocabulary, seeing other patterns in use etc etc, in addition to SSiW from the off as it were - but of course speaking to people is the best way. But then I never told people to stop talking to me while I finished my reading :blush:

But yes, I agree completely that the idea that reading is the best way to learn is, to me, an odd one.
I found I started really learning Welsh when I started speaking it with other people - and SSiW is a tremendous “leg up” for that. Tremendous. Certainly had a striking effect on me (for what that is worth).

I know it is possible to achieve fluency in Welsh through simply speaking to people, and not doing any lessons or reading. [As an adult! :blush:] (I’ve seen it! Not surprisingly!)
I can’t really imagine that the other way round.

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But you are advocating for communicative teaching methods when you write that "speaking is a skill that has to be taught: taught by providing tasks based on situations students are likely to deal with and by providing grammar and lexis that are relevant to complete the tasks. "
You do agree that CLT boils down to tasks, that immitate real -life situations but are basically inseperable from “drills” and not real life in any sense. To that I say that this proves what my point is, that the communicative classroom is not how languages are learned, because it puts students in situations that are scripted, given a set parameter of phrases to use for a set goal, and that basiically becomes a kind of substitution drill. with fill in the blamks. Students are set to work using a phrase or line to find out something from the other and the other student is given a list of options to answer with. This is pronunciation exercise, and oral articulation of muscles related to language reading off a sheet, with some checking of whether each word is correct or not. That is if you as a teacher have given them clear material to work with. This is the most useful form of speaking activity. But it does not how people learn languages. Languages are learned through input- listening, observing and making connections at one’s own pace.
If what you mean is the even more vague communicative taks, such as ones where students are not given enough lexis and grammar form to use in the task, this is much less useful and is not good for much at all. This is what most of our language text books have to offer students. They simply ask students to talk together about a certian topic and provide a role for each. They may describe a situation to pretend they are in, and give a few words to use along the side of the page or in a “wordbook”, but students do not use these exercises to say much and there is no goal and no way to measure. If anything it has students always guessing and not knowing what to do or say or whetehr they are correct or not. These exercizes are what most of CLT is .

Stella wrote: "Every speaking task assigned to students has a goal and provides them with a possibility to assess whether they succeeded or not. " Here you write that there is a goal in the task. What do you mean ? the explicit goal or the hidden or implicit goal? Is the goal simply to complete the fill in the blanks on a pairwork task of information gap? To practise and rehearse the new grammar form? Students can not assess whether one is correct or not, because they are both language students. This is what I mean when I say that speaking exercizes with other learners are a waste of valuable time. Do your speaking lessons have a correct or incorrect answer? If so they are a kind of test. If students are unsure of the goal, or whether they are right or not wouldnt that create anxiety especially when they must pass the course? What is the goal of conversatiuon exercise except rehearse phrases? Why cant they do that with a phrase book and CD player then? at home or on their own without paying all that money for classes?

I was hoping not to go deeper than one another’s theory about how we learn language, because you as a teacher can provide a lot of examples from experience , Here are studies that show why conversation tasks do not work, because you asked, but I only do so because you wrote Gethin’s views are “extreme and subjective” when in fact many in the field believe the same way and there is a lot of gray area on this and teachers ought to explain why students are put into such long classes if studies say that this is not as effective as shorter or no classes, and if the methods don’t work .

  1. learners who learn in speaking exercises in a groupwork setting cannot learn language of a higher level than what they already know and cannot correct each others mistakes (Lightbrown and Spada, 1999).

In studies of learner’s classroom dialects, called interlanguages, classroom speech of Canadian elementary school English learners was recorded over several years across different groups. Data was analyzed by counting instances and frequency of errors of grammatical morphemes, (wh-question form, verb usage, and –ing inflection) certain consistent patterns of non- authenticity of interlanguages were seen. It was found that learner interlanguages are limited by, and reflect the learner languages that they were exposed to in the classroom. If students only listened to and interacted with other students in their classroom, they consistently did not know how to correct same mistakes that the other students were making, and they made the same kinds of mistakes. More importantly, if certain words or grammatical forms were not introduced by the class textbook or the teacher, learners dialects did not include them. In other words, the level of accuracy and specific content of the interlanguage only rose to the level of the other learners, and the overriding factor was exposure to what kind of language. Learners at similar levels who hear and understand each other reinforce some of the non-target aspects of their shared interlanguage, because they do not have access to information that would help to correct those errors (Lightbrown and Spada, 1999).
2 Another example to support superiority of input-based learning is a study by Mason (2010) that confirms the assertion that EFL courses are not at all time-efficient or cost-efficient. In the study, an adult in his 40’s began reading graded readers that he loaned from a teacher who asked him to write a summary in his language and kept a record of vocabulary that he wanted to remember. After reading for 6 months he took the TOEIC examination, scoring 476. He took it again one year later, scoring 655 for a gain of 180 points in one year. He had no instruction except for a 30 hours listening comprehension class where he listened to stories. Over one year, he read 6456 pages, which took 217 hours including the listening class, and his total input time was 247 hours. He improved .73 points for each hour spent reading or listening. He was twice as efficient as students in traditional classes who gain .27 points for each hour listening or reading according to Pendergrast (2000) who estimates that College EFL students in Japan gain 135 points on the TOEIC (from 265 to 400) in four semesters, which is 500 hours of class time combined with reading.
3. there are many studies that are easy to find that survey learner’s about their own independent, outside reading that always show that the most successful learners report learning most of what they know from their own reading outside of the classroom, and read the most or watch movies on their own or self direct their learning on a computer chat board.

However, on the communicative teaching side, there are not studies that show that task based teaching using teacher-directed sopeaking exercises are any better or successful that previous methods, or than a student studying on their own without a teacher.

" (By the way, individual learning and encouraging learner autonomy is and has been for some years a part of almost every ELT curriculum, beginning with A1 level.)"
I assure you that whatever you read or were presented with in a TESOL course or a textbook such as cambridge or MacMillan Etc was NOT giving a version of “learner autonomy” to mean teaching a student to self-direct their own learning- or lessening teacher based tasks and reducing instruction. This view is expressly prohibited by the industry minds who have made it their carreer to re-interpret learner autonomy to not be mean to mean learners working on their own. If you doubt this, go back and check your texts and you will find a significant disclaimer at the outset of the chapters on learner autonomy, making it absolutely clear> It will say something like this: ’ learner autonomy is not a situation or product of any teacher interventions, it is not a state where the student is given more freedom- rather it is a attribute of a student who is able to be a responsible member of a classroom and able to take responsibility for their own progress, socially, in the context of a classroom." In other words- you as a teacher should not change the lesson to make students more independent , or teach students that they can learn by themselves or without your communicative speaking lessons. This is the industry version, and many write about this also. Look at writers like David Little and Philip Benson, who have co-opted the idea of learner autonomy to make it fit in with whole group classroom methods, adn make it be only about that. originally The idea of Learner autonomy in the 1960s meant teaching learners to study something with as little teacher assistance as possible or on their own. So what you have now from ELT industry books is learner autonomy in name only.

I don’t think there’s any point in going on with out discussion at all. I am at a loss about how to discuss with a person who is convinced that I don’t know what I am talking about, and frankly I am not interested in defending any method at all. The combination I use is working and has been working for a long time. If you are actually a teacher or a textbook writer and you have made at least twenty learners reach conversational fluency using just reading and listening - I am immensely delighted that your method is working, however nothing is going to convince me that is is THE method that will suit anyone. Right now, this is an idle theoretical conversation, with some feeble arguments like “one person learned by listening and observation more that learners in a classroom”. Which learners, which classroom was that? Or do you honestly believe that there’s a thing as an average pace of learning? As I mentioned before: to be scientific, you have to take people of similar age, abilities and motivation and conduct an experiment, in which one group will be learning using nothing but unguided listening and speaking, and the other one will be taught by using a combination of task-based, communicative and grammar-translation methods as it is often the case. Then, after a month or so it can be roughly evaluated what is more effective.

Take any of the Teacher’s books to any of the courses and you’ll find the answers. Task are different, goals are different too. Language teachers are not idiots and can tell between what students can assess themselves and what teachers need to assess, so there are immediate comprehensible goals for students such as finding out who in the classroom has been abroad, and there are goals that teachers are conscious of and which they assess.
But that is rather obvious, isn’t is? And yet, you would write three long posts proving me wrong - why? Because I called Gethin’s theory subjective? Well, it is. And it is rather limited, as you yourself say, to higher-level students. Take an average adult learner who’s learning abroad, doesn’t have much chance to practice the language learned and doesn’t have much experience learning languages. Ah, and he doesn’t like reading, either. You can expose him to films and TV-series for hours on end, but if he is a beginner, he won’t even know what he is looking for and which chunks to learn and how to practice. In my experience (unlike others, I’m reluctant to claim that my personal views are the general rule of how languages are learned) reading and watching works well in combination with pre and post reading/watching tasks, especially with lower-level students.

But I suggest that we stop this discussion. If you are working with your methods and they’re working splendidly - I’m delighted for you.

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Let’s keep it polite, friendly and respectful, folks :sunny:

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I apologize for having been too harsh, which doesn’t agree with how this wonderful forum normally works. I was perhaps a little bit slighted by the thought that ELT is essentially a money-making industry. But I do think that it’s pointless to continue this discussion and that perhaps Philip and I should just agree to disagree.

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I don’t think you were too harsh you have an equal right to your views. I have found this debate really interesting and think Aran intercedes at an appropriate point. Clearly you are not going to agree with each other. I trust there will also be agreement to disagree from Philip. Philip you have been somewhat aggressive - while I understand you feel very strongly about this but while you quote from many research sources the problem is, nevertheless is in the detail - the cohorts which are not necessarily the same as say, older, and even differently educated adults. We will all have our views about what works best while research raises more questions than it can answer. The only thing I would say . … SSIW perfect way to learn welsh but I have friends looking at me saying but… I don’t have the self drive you have. We are all different therefore and its s good thing that we can present positive but differing viewpoints!

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Thank you really very much for your support.

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I am really surprised by this response. Here I have taken time and effort to explain my ideas, and been generous with making some detailed paragraphs, and given studies, and examples of authors, and not one comment is made to answer these, and instead I am interpreted in terms of tone and emotional attitude or whatever. This term “agressive” , I don’t think, has any place here, in a discussion that is known to be about difference in viewpoints.
What difference might it make if I asked you to please indicate the sentence, or line where I was being “agressive” if you have overlooked the questions and decent enough examples I have given to make my disagreeing point? I don’t really think it is a good precedent setting either to assume writing is a liability or something to count against someone or their written ideas, when they appreciate the reader enough to take the time to engage them at length as professionals.
so Tone does not belong in the discussion if it is supposed to be scientific, and neither does it play fair to blame another person for happenning to hold an opposite viewpoint. Surely the world is big enough to naturally generate a supply of more viewpoints on a teaching issue than everyone can get behind. .
There is plenty of room for differences in ELT but they are not getting in, because of the kind of asssumption like you see and read here.
I can not speak for Gethin, but I know he strongly believed in ethics, as a motivational force in his essays, and he wrote about morality, and what was right and wrong in how he saw the industry practices. He was operating from an ethical standpoint. His premise was that languages are not taught- they are learned. For someone like that, any class lessons beyond what is necessarry to get any learner started is an interference, and a hinderance, and when an industry sells something that does not work , it is fraud. logically follows that , Since the industry does not allow criticism of basic methods it is set up to perpetuate fraud. Because there is something different about language learning that makes it so people have to teach themselves.
Language is like learning to ride a bicycle, because you only need to be shown how to begin doing it, and once you are able to collect and take in language at a rate fast enough to keep going then there is no need for another person to keep guiding you. That is like is another person kept helping you ride a bike. What language really is is a personal journaley collecting new words. Something people do without school at all ages. If that sounds radical let me quote from R. Amritavalli:
" If language learning is envisaged as happening in its own time and at its own pace in each learner, it is necesssarry for each learner to take charge of her learning, what happens at her convenience rather than strictly during class or tuition time. …The idea need sto be inculcated in learners , in some way , that language learning is an exploratory activity . Each learner undertakes an exploration of the languge in accordance with her current ability…" She goes on to say that with languge learning the ZPD ( zone of proximal development) is internal and can never be known by an educator outside her mind.
the responces I got do not make any sense, because on the one hand when I supply studies, as per request, I am told I was arguing too hard by writing so much, and this somehow counts against my real motives or ideas, and on the other hand when I try to explain theory, I was told there is no point going on discussing “idle conversation” and no method is worth defending at all. That is a very post-modern approach. There are plenty of sources to support that view also.
This puts everything in a position where nothing matters, and that is the state of ELT as explained by S. BAX (2003) Context approach to languge teaching , when he writes that we are now in a “post methods era”. Todays teachers do not really need to follow methods according to this idea.
Gethin wrote it was important for ordinary people to question academics and the social sciences and he believed their ideas were much too unchallanged , that second language theory and linguistics enjoyed a status they didnt deserve because ordinary people can learn languages without teachers but there is a huge industry built up around keeping them believing this isnt true.

“I am really surprised by this response. Here I have taken time and effort to explain my ideas, and been generous with making some detailed paragraphs, and given studies, and examples of authors, and not one comment is made to answer these”

Perhaps you did not see my comment. Here it is again:

Based on my own experience I would disagree quite strongly with your original lengthy post. In terms of relative ease I find learning to read and write a language much easier than conversing.

I have learned several languages by reading first and find that it has slowed down, even inhibited, the process of conversing.

Following my experience with SSiW I have now tried learning languages the other way around - learning to converse first, deliberately delaying reading, and then only after mastering conversation doing some reading to help add vocabulary. I find the reading even then only partly effective unless I add a “reading aloud”" element. The reading is, of course, enjoyable.

For me - and I do not mean to denigrate anyone else’s method of learning - I find the SSi “conversation first method” so compelling that I would venture to say it is more effective by several times than anything else I have tried. To be specific it may take me three months to reach a certain level with SSi which by other methods has taken me four to eight times as long.

Perhaps we all learn differently but for me while learning by reading is not as difficult as other methods, and is hugely enjoyable, it is relatively ineffective. It may play a role but not a critical one.

Justin

I wouldn’t have said ‘aggressive’ myself, but you did sound rather hectoring as you effectively told Stella/Seren that she was teaching the wrong way (despite her having successful students) - equally, Seren has recognised that she reacted a little bit strongly, and I’m sure the two of you would be entirely capable of having an interesting and polite discussion (which is why I asked everyone to remember that this forum requires a polite, friendly and respectful tone).

In general terms, I think your posts would be considerably more readable if you left a blank line between paragraphs, as has become a norm in most forum discussions - you’ll probably also find that more people will engage if you keep to one or two key ideas per post - lengthy posts probably work better in a blog environment than a forum environment… :sunny:

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