The sentence is “Wnaeth fy chwaer gyfarfod rhywun ddoe sy’n nabod dy chwaer di.”
Is the di used here for emphasis, as in, “My sister met someone yesterday who knows your sister”? Would you leave off the di if it began “Wnaeth fy mrawd…”? Is there some other mysterious reason why it’s there? I’m asking because although I know it’s technically correct, it’s never actually been used up until now.
(we really need emojis that scratch their heads in puzzlement or tear their hair out. Oh, wait… emoji faces don’t have any hair )
Yes, the di emphasises the dy “My sister met someone yesterday who knows your sister”. If you wanted to keep the emphasis on your, you’d need it whatever the sentence began with.
They come in pairs:
Fy (whatever) i
Dy (whatever) di
Ei (whatever) fo/fe
Ei (whatever) hi
Ein (whatever) ni
Eich (whatever) chi
Eu (whatever) nhw.
To emphasise both the ‘my’ and the ‘your’, you’d need both the pairs -
“Wnaeth fy chwaer i gyfarfod rhywun ddoe sy’n nabod dy chwaer di.”
I think in more formal, 100% grammatically correct Welsh the each half should ‘technically’ always be there, but generally in ordinary speech the second half is dropped unless you want emphasis. (Although I may have totally misremembered that from the university module I failed - perhaps someone else could confirm!)
@siaronjames That’s my understanding (from GCSE 2nd language). They should always be in pairs if you want to be grammatically correct but I usually drop the second half of the pair (if you see what I mean).
Just a slight addition - it isn’t always used for emphasis - it often is, but not always - sometimes, it’s just a matter of personal preference/the flow/feel of the sentence…
So don’t feel you have to use it for emphasis or musn’t use it unless you want to emphasise - it’s very much an ‘add flavour to taste’ kind of deal…
Just to muddy the waters (sorry!): in formal, written Welsh the second part isn’t generally used (it would just be “eich teulu” or whatever - no “chi” after). I hesitate to mention it, as that isn’t the sort of Welsh that most people will use on a regular basis (and so probably not relevant to most people on here) - but just in case anyone does start to go down the reading/writing route and starts to infer a lack of emphasis where none was intended!
Well - there’s formal, and there’s formal, isn’t there! TBH, when I’m writing something that’s “formal” but that needs to be approachable I’ll probably use both parts, because it feels more user-friendly for people not used to reading really dry texts!
That is what I learned back in the day. I noticed the disappearance of the second part, but had never realised about its use in stress!! Diolch to @sororp for asking as well as to you for the answer! I learn things much better :from exchanges like this than from the Challenges, Duolingo, Memrise etc!!
edit, having seen @sarapeacock’s comments… I am a bit confused. If, say, “fy mam i” is ‘correct’ then it couldn’t really be used for stress in a totally grammatical context, could it?
OK … this is getting interesting! My only formal tuition in Welsh has been in the formal, written form (from “gloywi” courses and the like), so I can’t comment on what is taught as “correct” for the spoken form. I do remember when I was first learning with SSiW noticing that sometimes there was a second bit and at other times there wasn’t, and asking my first-language contacts whether it was an emphasis thing and being told that it wasn’t. I’ve been through some of my books here, but the only mention I can find of it is in Gareth King’s Modern Grammar, where he says it is “optional”.
My instinct would be to say “Ti’n off dy ben!” but “Mae fy mhrawd i’n byw yn Lundain”. I think it’s probably something to do with rhythm as much as anything else? But then it could be used for stress if the second part is stressed in speech (“Pwy - Mam Sion?” “Na - fy mam i”).
The only time I would say that it sounds/feels odd to use it (or perhaps even “wrong”?) would be formations like “Gyda’i gilydd” or “o’m cwmpas” (although “ar fy nghyfer i” doesn’t feel wrong for some reason).
But these are “sounds to me” and “feels like” rather than anything more authoritative (and those who have grown up with the language will be more reliable on what “sounds” right).
Would I be right in thinking that “formal” does not necessarily imply “literary”?
I mean the sort of Welsh that is probably used in local government documents, or in the Welsh Assembly, or perhaps on the BBC website or the S4C website is more formal than the kind of Welsh SSiW teaches. But would it be referred to as Literary Welsh?
Certainly in the south we use the second part regularly for no reason other than to make it flow better. Of course “flowing better” is probably the same as hearing mutations as “right” or “wrong” - mostly to do with what we are sued to hearing.
On the subject of emphasis - you wouldn;t emphasise the first part, so for emphasis, you always need to add the secopnd.
EG Eich gwraig? (Your wife?) would sound very odd, but “eich gwraig chi?” would be fine.
I think I’m right to say that the second pronoun (the “chi”) generally isn’t used in formal or literary Welsh except for emphasis. For reference, I say formal Welsh to mean what you would use in a speech or sermon.
)
s for confirming it.
