Now there’s a good question. Well worth thinking on. I’d be tempted to say yes, equally - if both languages are to be seen as equally important, they need to be treated that way; if Welsh is given more time, people could well see that as their own language being treated as less important. Having said that, there are certainly arguments to be made either way.
As for which lessons should be taught in Welsh or English, I’d personally be in favour of leaving that up to the individual teachers.
Don’t forget that Welsh is the first language and in my experience 70 to 80% of children know barely any English until they go to school. We have to give the language priority.
My nephew was all but a monoglot English speaker until he started school, and he was not held back at all. In less than a year you couldn’t tell him from those who grew up within a purely Cymraeg household.
I am quite happy to accept that my language is indeed less important than Welsh - I’m in Wales. I chose to come here, and have chosen to stay here. It’s no different to an immigrant settling in England, Scotland, or outer Mongolia. And thanks to SSiW, I can now almost practise what I preach.
Yes, but you’re learning to speak Welsh of your own volition. There are a lot of people born and raised in Wales who would not only violently disagree with you, but would take opinions like that as proof of Welsh speakers’ arrogance. That’s the point I’m trying to make: Welsh is a minority language in Wales. To them, the idea of Welsh language schools is as daft as the idea of Spanish language schools in Texas. We can keep talking until the cows come home about how that’s an injustice and how everybody in Wales should be able to at least understand Welsh, if not speak it proficiently themselves, but that doesn’t solve any problems.
Right now, the Welsh language’s biggest opponents were born and bred in Wales, and see those who speak Welsh as arrogant and standoffish, if not outright racist and xenophobic. They see examples of that (and never notice examples to the contrary because they’re not looking for them) and think “that’s a group of people I don’t want to join”. They then teach that to their kids, and because almost all the Welsh speaking kids are in Welsh medium schools, those kids never see any counter-examples. They don’t get to meet Welsh speaking kids, and learn that actually they’re all just kids; they just learn prejudice from their elders and never question it. Then, they study the language at school, see it as something that they’re being forced to do and leave school still unable to speak the language and unwilling to even consider giving it another go.
So, if people already consider you arrogant and standoffish for not wanting your children to mix with theirs and demanding that everybody learns to speak your language in spite of it being a regional, minority language that they’ll almost certainly never need to use, how exactly are you ever going to get them to want to speak your language? Like I said, it needs to start young. Kids are only going to want to learn to speak Welsh if they have other kids to speak Welsh to - and if the kids are in an English language school, that’s not going to happen. Kids are only going to learn to see the Welsh language as normal if they encounter it as part of their daily lives - which again, won’t happen if they’re going to an English language school. So English language schools need to go. But good luck reducing the perception of arrogance if you insist that every school must only teach in the medium of Welsh. If Wales is to be a bi-lingual nation where people respect each other regardless of linguistic heritage, it needs to be that in every respect and it needs to begin in the playground.
Yes. Welsh speaking kids need to make English speaking friends, while English speaking kids need to make Welsh speaking friends - and while that might very occasionally happen outside of school, it’s far more likely to happen in school.
Having said that, if I honestly thought there were a way to arrange it that wouldn’t anger pretty much the entire English speaking population of Wales, I’d be all for all schools being Welsh only. Of course, that’s impossible for a number of reasons, so all schools being bi-lingual is, in my personal opinion, the best option.
What do you think about economic incentives to encourage parents to send their kids to Welsh medium schools? Tax concessions, subsidies, that sort of stuff? No idea if that is already available, mind.
I think that
while laudable, it won’t do much for Welsh, and may have the effect of them all ending up speaking English, exactly the problem that the initial post by Kim discussed, I think.
I hear what you’re saying, hectorgrey, and in areas where Welsh isn’t a natural community language, having one stream of education which makes sure that all children leave school comfortable in both languages would clearly be a good thing.
But this is where it gets a little more complicated. It’s not entirely true, you see. Welsh isn’t a minority language in Gwynedd, Môn, Ceredigion - so any blanket ‘all schools should use English and Welsh’ means that you strike a (possibly fatal) blow at the heart of natural Welsh communities.
It’s the big problem with ‘bilingualism’ - real bilingualism would be fine, but what we usually get in Wales is bilingualism which means Welsh speakers have to speak English, English speakers don’t have to speak Welsh.
A country with different kinds of communities is always going to need different kinds of approaches
I applied “Dechrau pob sgwrs” in Tesco, Wrecsam last night after visiting the Saith Seren. Having left bags behind in my car I proceeded to ask the lady at the self-checkouts to mind my basket whilst I went back to the car to fetch one.
Me: " … wna i nol bag oddi wrth fy nghar".
Checkout Lady: “I’m sorry, I don’t speak Welsh”
The reply was only too common and sadly unsurprising in Wrecsam but one more person will have been reminded that Cymraeg exists and is used by some people in the area. Indirectly, we can hope that keeping Cymraeg visible (audible) above the radar will translate into some more
people deciding to learn, who might otherwise not have done so.
I had hoped for (and look forward to finding next time) a different case. There will also be local people who learned Cymraeg at school (and a few at home) who may not be using it much, or at all, but can still remember stuff. When I find someone who tries to reply in Welsh, even with difficulty, I will know there is still hope. And if I bump into a rhugl speaker who puts my bad diction in its place, I will be greatly reassured. But then I will have to pinch myself to know I am still in Wrecsam and not dreaming, or actually in Gwynedd.
Oh how we make the same mistakes over and over again! Sectarian schools do it in Scotland and Ireland and I see what you mean totally about languages. I agree all should learn both and in both. I agree, subjects taught in this or that language should depend on teachers, but real effort would be needed to get enough able to teach through Cymraeg in the south east. That in an atmosphere of “we don’t want you here!”. I have a horrible feeling, it’s doomed to fail!! I don’t think there is a #face crying buckets’ for me to use!!
But why? Language supporters all have there reasons for wanting to learn and/or promote the language, but I’m not sure we shout loudly enough about WHY we feel so strongly.
Sure, kids are given a list of ‘reasons’ to learn Welsh, including things like, ‘for more job opportunities’, but if you already see Welsh as irrelevant, then that and other superficial reasons have little weight.
The language must become relevant ‘in real life’, so that speaking can progress beyond the school gates.
My answer to why? Because learning another language enriches your life and opens doors to new cultural experiences. That’s probably a hard sell to a pre-GCSE student, but I’m sure some skilful storyteller/film maker could make a good job of it.
You could try insisting on a welsh speaker dealing with your request but I think you may have a hard time finding one. I know Aled does this from time to time, he goes to Y Saith Seren also so I’ll ask him about his experiences next time I see him.
This is a cue to hand her a SSiW business card or postcard.
@Aran - Would it be possible to put up a template for people to download and make their own?
There used to be (and perhaps still is) a downloadable SSiW poster on the old forum, but something smaller would be handy in situations like these.
We have done stuff like this in the past, but it gets clunky and complicated quite quickly - it would be good to have a ‘promotion’ section at some point with a bunch of different things like that - we’ll try and find time for it
My bit of promotion, unfortunately in pure not-Cymraeg environment. However at least someone asks me from time to time what SaySomethingInWelsh is and I don’t spare words to tell them how magnificent it is and what unique way you can learn languages. I can speak at least so much Cymraeg that I can amaze people around me and one day I might get someone else in Slovenia interested enough to start to learn Cymraeg. (And, please, don’t take this photo as self-praising because it’s not meant to be so …)
However I often wonder what would happen if I one day cruise around one Cymraig city or village in this shirt? Would it be more like provocation or it might do some promotional bit. (Just a deep morning wonderings and pondering thoughts).
But yes, it would be useful to have some well thought and designed promotional material. You never know where and when you might be in position to give it out to someone. Well you all know the best that you have to strike while iron is hot …
I can see that “It is your heritage!” probably doesn’t appeal to 14 year-olds who think they have enough trouble learning in English!
Did anyone see the program about IS destroying all the ancient artifacts in Iraq? “First they destroy your culture, then then kill you!”, someone said. Obviously, with us, it is just the culture… or is it? Get enough people seeing Cymraeg as ‘foreign rubbish’ and anyone interested in it or speaking it as old-fashioned and moronic and how soon before they cease to see the point of having ‘Wales’. “Why can’t we just be English?”, they may ask.
Braveheart did actually stir a few Scots. Maybe we need a few really good films?!! I remember a Scottish friend bemoaning their lack of an anthem and saying “You still have your language and that brilliant stirring song!” So they wrote ‘Flower of Scotland’ and, really, haven’t looked back since!!! (Although we are still - just - better at rugby!)
