Oh, well, we’re just debating. Unfortunately we’re not in position to completely solve the problem, we only can contribute to its salvation.
And why you’d be “sori”? I never demanded one has to agree with me no matter that sometimes it might appears like that though.
As regarding sai’n … hmmm … I have dificulties to use it but if used by someone else I understand it perfectly. (Strange are learning ways of mine … )
It should be maybe something like ex Yugoslavia has done with Serbo-Croatian. We had it for half a year, just enough to get familiar with language, structure, a bit of gramar, script (as cyrylic is its script) … We had just one advantage - we had to use it quite a lot in our daily life and we loved that fact …
But yes, this could be an option, however I’d make it a year not half of a year. We were sorry when theat half year passed. We wanted more.
Thank you for your response, Tatjana, which leads me to explain a couple of things.
Perhaps it’s a difference in the way we use the word “debating”. To me “debating” is a fairly formal procedure involving research and presenting arguments. I would never attempt to “debate” online. I value this forum especially for its informal ambience where views are exchanged but arguments are relatively rare. In this case, all I did was registeri my disagreement without any intention of giving my reasons. I’m sorry (and I mean sorry) if I misled you into thinking that I was doing more than that.
Of course I don’t believe you would “demand agreement”
The reason I always say sori/sorry in such a situation may just be a cultural thing or even just a hewrop thing. I and others do it to soften the statement and ensure that it is not heard as being confrontational. We Brits are well known and often ridiculed for saying “sorry” too often. If two Brits accidentally brush into each other in the street, each will often blurt out “sorry” almost instinctively (without really feeling either is guilty).
Enjoy your use of “so/sa” but don’t be surprised to hear “dwi ddim” etc (as Aran tells you elsewhere.) I hope one day you manage to get to South Wales to hear this construction and our living language in daily use.
Yes, but surely “bacwn” and “sosej” are actually ENGLISH words, which have just had the spelling “Welshified” to make them Welsh? OK, all languages borrow words from other languages, but I don’t see the point of borrowing something if you’ve already got it. So if there’s a perfectly good and simple word in the native language, why not just use that- a sort of “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”!
It’s to do with how language evolves. Languages borrow words all the time, often for things they already have words for. Depending on how long the language has to do it, the language will sometimes start to change a little, like how ask and demand have different meanings in English, even though the words they come from in the languages they derive from mean the same thing. Same with cow and beef; pig and pork, and so on. This will continue to happen to every language for as long as language remains a thing, and the whole time there will be people asking why people are using new words when the old ones work just as well.
To be honest, this word was the first which came to my mind to express my thoughts not even thinking what’s formal and what not. Sometimes I (despite I (at least I think so) write in English quite well) have that difficulty of “how one says this?” or “What’s the word, I can’t remember!” in English too. So I wouldn’t “scream” just “Galla i ddim cofio!” but it very well could be also “I can’t remember!” Maybe I should say “discussing” or “talking” … I actually thought you’d all understand perfectly well what I meant, but OK. Will put much more care into words I use on this forum in the future (hopefully my temperament won’t betray me in this).
Um, well, In Slovenia, when this would happen and I’d say “oprostite” I’d very often get very puzzled look (or even annoyed one) one thinking “OK, go your way …” (or I’m just meeting such people and this actually is not general thing, I don’t know).
At this stage of learning I have to admit I like this one better. So/sa feels to me like something would be missing in the whole structure and just can’t get used to it. One day maybe …
Dreams are not forbidden but I’m very far from their realization. It might very well never happen unfortunately …
English comedians like to take the micky out of Welsh when they come across English words that have been turned into Welsh words with a slight change of spelling or pronunciation.
They then extend the argument to suggest that Welsh is just English with a funny accent.
What they forget is that language is MUCH MORE than just vocabulary. If it was that easy then we wouldn’t need SSIW, but just a good dictionary. Welsh patterns of speech, grammar if you like, remain REALLY STRONG and haven’t (have they?) been Wenglishified.
While in Wales earlier this month I was speaking to an English friend, non Welsh speaker, about my Welsh learning, and he said that at least I have an advantage - that I don’t live in Wales. How can that be an advantage I asked, and his reply was that I am unlikley to get disillusioned! He says everyone who moves to Wales intends to learn the language but few succeed. That did give me some food for thought.
I met a Welsh person who does not like being spoken to by Welsh learners. Yet In Scotland I’m only too happy to help foreign tourists who speak in English to me.
And I’ve met Welsh people who have lost a lot of Welsh and are most uncomfortable exposing their weaknesses in the language. Perhaps Welsh demands some kind of perfection?
When I was in Holland I did lots of touristy things, and the people doing the commentaries would do it in three, sometimes four languages. In Wales I have yet to hear a guide do his or her stuff bilingually (I’m sure folks will give examples where it does happen). In one place I was in, in Wales, they looked at me and handed me the English guide to the building, though I grabbed the Welsh one.
Maybe the perfection thing is a problem for the future of the language, maybe the boundaries between Welsh speakers, semi Welsh speakers, Welsh learners,and English speakers need to be blurred.
There are, I believe, two parallel struggles going on, but of course they are inter-linked. Firstly, there is a Hearts and Minds challenge on the streets to get people to take Y Gymraeg more seriously. People who are able to do so should try to Dechrau Pob Sgwrs yn Y Gymraeg, even if they are not always understood, to reinforce the message that the natural language of Cymru is Cymraeg. Of course people need to learn, but there are plenty of people starting to learn, but far too few going the whole road to regular use. I didn’t say Fluency (which is a very hard term to define) but off-the-record I believe fluency and regular use are pretty intimately connected. It doesn’t even have to take all that long to learn (I started just before Christmas, admittedly with decades of background subliminal Welsh and I am within weeks of finishing all the Northern SSiW lessons at all levels). But it does take some commitment to USE Welsh regularly. Like going weekly from Wigan to Wrexham to chat in the Saith Seren. But it does not feel like hard work when you are having fun.
The second struggle is in the corridors of power. Government, obviously (a lot more enlightened these days than many decades back), but also, probably more so, Industry. The Welsh Not was terrible whilst it lasted, but did not last long enough to be single-handedly blamed for the decline of Welsh. Even when the Welsh Not was phased out, people started to use English if and when it was perceived as helpful in getting work. As many jobs were in factories, mines etc. run by English-speaking managers, this happened a lot. We need to ask why is not more industry run in Welsh. It is not just a case of trying to persuade current owners to be bilingual (though that is good), I want to know why home-grown Welsh industry did not develop sufficiently in the past and especially what we can do NOW to make it flourish.
Some forward steps are simple and obvious. Given the choice, USE Y Gymraeg wherever possible and choose, where available, businesses offering services in it over those which do not. It is not always easy (English speaking chip shop on the corner, or a ten mile trip to order Pysgodyn a Sglodion in Welsh), but when it is easy (two chip shops on the same block), do it. With Tesco / Asda / Sainsburys / Morrisons etc. it is not always easy to change loyalties but I would try to prefer those offering the best Cymraeg service. Getting a suitable job is harder, but one answer is to grown your own. I ponder regularly how to develop a viable small business that can grow so that I might be able to live my dream of total Cymraeg in the workplace.
It can’t be right that 80%, for whom Welsh is their first language, should have to be predominantly taught in what to them is a foreign tongue, surely? No, as I said, Welsh only schools have to be a necessity to keep the language alive (and the culture).
Such an interesting discussion. I’ve just had my week on my beloved SIr Ynys Mon and heard people speaking Cymraeg everywhere which was wonderful. I did attempt to join in but was not entirely successful. I started with Bore da in shops or helo… but people just spoke to me in English, my accent must give me away - no matter how ‘Welsh’ I tried to sound! I was running out of time and yesterday I launched into a sentence when ordering a panini, the lady replied with nothing I could really follow, and I gave up, returning to English. I did feel that people in their workplace are probably too busy to speak slowly to a learner. I’m only half way through Course 2 and I also felt too much panic to relax! Maybe it will be better next time with more learning behind me…
This is what I always found at the start but, as the language became more embedded, there was a point where I’d walk into a newsagent or chippy anywhere and begin talking and even if that was just a simple - “Bore Da!” - the staff would respond in Gymraeg…It’s a total mystery to me why there was a difference…perhaps I just sounded more positive…
When I first started out with SSiW and after my first Bootcamp (which was a great experience and one I’d recommend) I’d wander into shops, when they weren’t busy, and engage the staff in conversation. If they went into English I’d tell them I was on a challenge not to speak English…Most times people would smile/laugh and be onboard with me…
Even now I don’t understand everything people are saying but I generally follow the gist: but that’s only come through time
Soot tells me he likes both, just up the quantity. Now.
Seriously, Swedish seems to survive all of this, including teaching university courses in English.
I have to admit I find it very hard to understand why anyone would object to being spoken to by a learner, but I wonder how Gallic speakers react if addressed in ‘leaners’ Gallic’?
Is it a sort of ‘I’m not a teacher, try someone else!’ reaction?
I am certain that the loss of Cymraeg in the valleys was half due to the influx of folk from all over looking for work and half due to mine owners and iron masters wanting an English speaking workforce. Even now, while both languages have to be available in official situations, in industry and commerce, there is no obligation to cater for speakers of yr hen iaith.
I see where you’re coming from, but that’s part of the problem. From the perspective of parents who don’t speak Welsh, they see Welsh language schools as another sign of arrogance from Welsh speakers; not wanting their children to mix with children who don’t speak Welsh. I never said that they should be predominantly taught in English, by the way; I said that both languages should be used for all children. All schools should be bilingual, and should have sufficient Welsh speaking staff to keep it that way.
Welsh will never be the predominant language of Wales again. There are too many people for whom it is not their first language, even if everybody could speak it perfectly. The best that can be hoped for is for the majority of people to understand Welsh and accept its everyday use - and that requires that children hear Welsh being used regularly from a young age. It requires that the English speaking kids and the Welsh speaking kids mix from an early age, rather than going to separate schools, being raised separately, playing only with kids with the same first language and being faced with the same echo chamber that leads to the extreme opinions of “If you can’t speak Welsh you shouldn’t call yourself Welsh” and “All Welsh speakers are arrogant racists who hate anyone who doesn’t speak their language”.
That’s the kind of foolishness that needs to be gotten rid of, and it can only be done if you start young.
He may be right, but hopefully, that’s based on his experience in a pre-SSiW world. SSiW is helping to change things, and I’m sure we all hope that change will spread far and wide.
I think of the situation in the Republic of Ireland, where after independence the new government made strong rules about the use of Irish, and it was very much a symbol of nationalism. Today however, on a day to day level, Irish does not seem to be in a very healthy state. On the other hand, appearances can be deceptive. A friend and former colleague of mine from Dublin moved back there some years ago. I only relatively recently realised (after telling him about my Welsh exploits) that he had quite a strong interest in Irish literature, and that his daughter was quite proficient in it. So hopefully, it is healthier than it looks, at least at the level of the written language.
It could be a bit similar to our borders area with Hungary and Austria (Especially Hungary) where there are bilingual schools as well as those with one language ones, being Slovenian or Hungarian. Kids have a feeling each language is (at least a bit) equally important and hear it on regular daily basis.
Fair enough, but equally? English is so dominant that kids pick it up even if it was not a medium for education - perhaps it could be taught through the medium of Welsh?
An excerpt from the programme description as rendered by Google translate:
These are the questions underlying the new research by Dr. Sion Aled Owen. By Bangor University has since received funding from the Economic and Social Research Council.
It discusses its initial findings - for the first time - Specify program this week.
The program will visit two schools in Wrexham welsh - Bod Hyfryd and Morgan Llwyd - to get young people’s views about their use of Welsh and hear about a plan to promote Welsh youngest pupils at break time School Tregarth near Bangor.
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