Do some Welsh speakers have a problem with learners?

Yes - I tend to presume (unless someone is obviously in a filthy temper!) that no offence is intended - it’s one of the reasons I think we need to do more with language awareness training (which I also, as it happens, think would be a much better fit for English medium schools than compulsory Welsh).

Fortunately, where we were does a very good job in general of language awareness training, and were very quick to let me know that the usher in question would be getting a refresher. :slight_smile:

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This kind of nit-picking is the kiss of death, surely. All the world’s languages are living, fluid, taking on board influences from other countries. That’s what keeps them alive, isn’t it? Otherwise a language can become as dead and dry as schoolbook Latin.

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Yes, with the best will in the world, people just need to get a job done. I can understand how disappointing that may be for first-language Welsh, and indeed for learners who really want to be part of it, but that’s the reality for many if not most situations. I wonder how many people living in Wales, when they get those letters from the County Council, the DVLA, or other government bodies, actually read the Welsh part of the communication? And at ATM machines, when there is an option button to proceed in Welsh, I heard on the radio that the uptake of that option is 1%. Which surprised me.

It’s fascinating, really. I have a similar story with my own grandfather, who is Italian. After emigrating to Australia in the 50’s, he completely assimilated and speaks with no hint of an Italian accent at all. Although he’s a proud Italian, he refused to ever speak Italian to my mother, aunt or uncle, or to me because he told us it was useless and besides, everyone speaks English anyway. He even has cousins in Italy with whom he’s still in touch, who barely have a word of English between them!

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Awkward. In my note above about Punjabi, I mentioned the similarity, along the Welsh border, of Wenglish (a total mix of English and Welsh) to my friends’ Punjabi/English and said I thought that sort of mix led to the death of a language. Well, a total mix is clearly better than no Welsh at all, but it is different from the odd sosej or chip! Also, it seems incredibly rude of any learner to criticise the Welsh of any Welsh speaker unless that person is also still learning and asks for criticism! I was surprised, in ‘Rownd a Rownd’ on S4C, at how often the word ‘Champion’ is used to mean, 'excellent;, ‘great’, ‘very good’. But I would guess it has entered the language and I would never dream of criticising it’s use, but would probably copy it!

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I use Champion all the time, when speaking and sometimes in written communication. It’s very common in North Wales, especially in parts of Gwynedd and has as you’ve implied, become a natural part of spoken language in these parts. But it doesn’t necessarily take the part of another obvious Welsh word that you would use instead apart maybe from ‘iawn’. So people don’t tend to correct themselves or each other when using it in the context you mention above. Interestingly, it iisn’t a commonly used word in English in this particular context either.

For example, if someone said to me in Welsh ‘Na i ddod i nol chdi am naw o’r gloch, wedyn awn i’r dre’ (I’ll come and get you at nine and we’ll go to town), I would naturally answer ‘champion’. It sounds more enthusiastic, jolly and friendly than just saying ‘iawn’. :wink:

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Diolch! I was mid-way through working out when it got used and would only dared have said ‘Champion’ in answer to ‘Sut wyt ti’!

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That’s the key word, I think. It makes sense. If you are emigrating and going to a country with a different language, you need lots of tools in order to make a success of it, and language must surely be the most important. Therefore a command of the new language is a mark of your own success. This must be true of Wales, as well. I can understand why Welsh people wanted to learn English. Without it, you are stuck in your native land. In the age of mass immigration, with most immigrants heading for English speaking countries, they would have been very keen to promote the English language. It’s sad in a way that you thereby lose your native language, but it’s almost inevitable.

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I’ve been listening to Radio Cymru lately and have noticed that some contributors throw in more English words and phrases than others. The producers of the radio shows clearly don’t mind! But what the heck, English has been absorbing French, Latin, Scandinavian influences for thousands of years. They become so much a part of English that we forget their origin. And English shows no sign of decline.

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My grandparents used “champion” a lot as it used to be common in the dialects of the North of England, but if anyone still uses it, they’ll be at least in their 80s.

I knew I’d heard it somewhere! Of course! I lived in Yorkshire from 1952-1956 and 1969-1972! I am not yet in my eighties, but I bet some of my contemperories still use it!

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I like it, because it was a word much favoured by my maternal grandfather and some uncles in south Cumbria (although it’s probably more thought of as a Yorkshire-ism). I assume it was common in the north generally, and spread to North Wales, but it’s not used so much in south Cumbria any more, in my limited experience.

As to English being the second language of the world, I’d say that’s a bit of a mixed blessing for us Brits.

In passing, On University Challenge last night, one question asked the most spoken languages in the UK afer English. The answer was given as 1. Polish 2. Urdu 3. Punjabi and I think Gujarati was close behind. Perhaps surprisingly, Hindi didn’t feature.

(See my previous comment): I will occasionally throw it into a conversation (down here in Oxfordshire) and watch for the reaction. :slight_smile: And I often use it with my Mum who likes it as it reminds her of her beloved Dad.

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Whenever I hear Champion, I see, in my minds eye a very charming little dun coloured cob (Welsh C or thereabouts) who bore the word as his name. He deserved it too! It takes me a moment to process ‘champion’ when I hear it used in conversation (got to wait for him to stomp past with his usual jolly air). :racehorse::racehorse:

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In passing, On University Challenge last night, one question asked the most spoken languages in the UK afer English. The answer was given as 1. Polish 2. Urdu 3. Punjabi and I think Gujarati was close behind. Perhaps surprisingly, Hindi didn’t feature.

?!

According to the last census, there were roughly 546,000 Polish speakers in England and Wales. Still not as many as Welsh speakers in Wales (putting aside the fact that we don’t have a figure for how many Welsh speakers there are in the rest of the UK, as the question didn’t get asked on the census).

I find that sort of misinformation really annoying!

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I have found people to be surprised and delighted that I am trying to learn their language. There are a lot of first language Welsh speakers in the area. I do try to be aware of the situation when trying my halting language skills out in shops. I was told to speak to one lady in our local Spar but it took three or four attempts when the shop was quiet to have a real several minute conversation back and forth in Welsh. Another (Welsh teacher) has valiantly tried to engage me in Welsh conversation while out and about and has unceasingly put my mind into argh! Mode with little or rubbish Welsh coming out of my mouth by surprising me. My patient neighbour always encourages me but we fall back on bits of English to give her some interest in my visits.

However, before we moved we were warned the Welsh were a bit off. Tales of Aberystwyth being unfriendly in town from ex-students, though I wonder if students thought to learn any Welsh and come to that English university towns struggle with cap and gown situations. Also my mother on the family holiday in the 70’s was apparently snubbed by the ladies in the village shop turning to Welsh when she came in. We were staying in Capel Garmon in one of those empty most of the year second homes. I wonder now if she heard some of those borrowed English words being used in Welsh conversation. Enough to say she had nothing good to say about all the “Liverpool trash” (her feelings not mine) and Londoners who’d spoilt her home town and would judge others by her own standards.

So think a lot of it is to do with how you are with people but sometimes it’s just the wrong person or a bad day. I find it’s more common to have first language speakers apologise because “we say …but I don’t know the proper Welsh” or “I’m trying to teach correct Welsh”. I think they flip to English because they are embarrassed. I find it incredibly sad that it was explained to me by Charles about 60, who had spoken no English until English secondary school, that he couldn’t read Welsh. He didn’t speak proper Welsh and the people in Cardiff were quiet snobby about it. Charles is a farmer and listening to him chat in Welsh with his friend using English terms for degrees and measurements because they are easier gave me confidence to return to Welsh in conversation after an English blip. I’m not sure purists have the best model for a living language as the easiest or first term used for a thing adds to a language.

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@sarapeacock It’s possible the question referred to England only. I’m afraid I didn’t hear the exact question properly, and just deduced it from the answers. :blush:

The question referred to the UK.

It asked for 3 out of the 5 most widely spoken languages after English, but only 4 other languages were mentioned in total.

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I might have mentioned this before elsewhere on the forum. As I’ve been learning to speak Welsh i decided to find out what I could about why my family didn’t speak Welsh. My mums side was easy, a Radnorshire family, an area that long ago lost the language. My dads side was strange, my grandfather grew up in a farm in the heart of Carmarthenshire. My great grandfather would surely have been fluent. It seems like he decided to ‘forbid’ his children from speaking Welsh, for the same reason Anne gives above. This was perhaps a thing at the time as the world was changing and the future for most of his sons (7 of them) wasn’t in farming, but in heading to the big towns and cities.
His brother (my great uncle) did speak Welsh, but married an Englishwoman in the end and didn’t pass ti on to my 2nd cousins. Apparently he spent more time trying to chat up the milk maids than my grandfather did, which I can easily believe, he was the one who went into farming and he was the only one of the nine siblings who spoke Welsh.
Of course now I’m turning things around and getting Cymraeg back into our family. Even though my dad thinks that my learning Welsh was a daft idea!!

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Perhaps the researchers on University Challenge need to go back to college.

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