Do some Welsh speakers have a problem with learners?

Welsh General / Questions
#41

I’ll try to keep this short. It’s a different perspective but probably won’t relate directly at first.

By now, all my friends, family, and colleagues should know I don’t hear anywhere near as well as they can. I still find myself excluded frequently, having to remind them to stop talking whilst facing away or stop banging things around whilst talking.

I don’t think they ever do it as an act of malice; I just don’t think they really understand how little I do hear when they question me.

Being told not to mumble or “the words on screen are really distracting me can we turn them off/why do you have subtitles on”, “oh it doesn’t matter/forget I said anything” is probably on par with “they all started speaking X” “stop speaking X”, “X is exclusive”.

Of all those, being told to forget it probably feels the most exclusive to me, as I feel like the vast majority of people have a choice in deciding whether a conversation is relevant to them and don’t need to ask people to repeat themselves. I can understand the frustration repeating yourself, though that’s not a luxury of choice for me.

In situations similar to those expressed by @aran, @iestyn, @nicky, and @margarethall, I’ve had to contend being shouted at for being exclusive. Signing with friends who can, in company of friends who cannot. Quite often I stop verbalising when signing but I don’t realise I’ve done so until someone reminds me in kind; much like me asking people not to turn away or hide their mouth.

One instance has left me sort of estranged from part of the family for mis-hearing something said. My response wasn’t taken kindly. Even though I heard something different, the response fit the question and not in a good way.

It can be really frustrating to be on either or both sides and to be honest, it’s hard not to “let the hate flow and join the dark side”; but that’s probably the most important thing to avoid, I cannot say I’ve never snapped at people in frustrating; I do however regret every time I have as it never made anything better and I only felt worse for it.

Obviously my experiences are quite different but I can at least say it’s not something only limited to spoken languages.

6 Likes
#42

I’m sure that when those Welsh people were busy learning English for their betterment, they gave no thought (or didn’t care) that it might lead to the eradication of their native language. Cultural suicide! Ironic now that far from being a hindrance, you can fashion a lucrative career out of it! And people like my grandfather didn’t identify their native tongue with a nationalist agenda as some do now.

2 Likes
#43

That sounds like a tough gig, @cwningen - I’m really sorry that even family would misinterpret your intention - that must be incredibly frustrating. Hang on in there.

1 Like
#44

Mine too. The war killed off two generations of Welsh speakers in my family, and then it was lost. I may not speak the Welsh that they would have spoken - who knows? No one can tell me. Whilst I wish I had known about them sooner, and even more so, had the chance to talk to them, it hadn’t occurred to me that they may have tried to put me off! [quote=“Y_Ddraig_Las, post:39, topic:10808”]
getting Cymraeg back into our family
[/quote]

Yes - back to where it should be! Me too! :smile:

This is a very timely reminder for me today @cwningen. My 6 year old daughter has hearing loss and we all seem to forget how to make things better for her in the hubbub of busy lives. Today was one of those days.

When I read your description of how you feel, it pressed the reset button for me and I realised that my awareness needs a bit of a kick - diolch yn fawr iawn iawn.

3 Likes
#45

I know, me too. I wonder what my uncle would think of me speaking like a gog!

2 Likes
#46

It’s been several years but I’d still be happy to help or see them if ever they changed their mind. To be honest, the reaminder of the family, friends, and new friends I’ve met from here and through Cymraeg makes up for it anyway, so it’s their loss! :slight_smile:

You’re welcome, although it wasn’t my intention to make anyone feel guilty or bad! It’s something I wanted to express that’s always really ground me down over the years, and struggle not to snap at people for when I’m saying the same things every five minutes!

…but I’m glad it’s helped :slight_smile:

2 Likes
#47

No no - you didn’t! I do need a little help understanding her world, and that help came from you - and it is genuinely appreciated. It is easy to forget that just tapping her on the shoulder instead of shouting, or taking the time to face her properly are easy adjustments that make a big difference to her understanding.

3 Likes
#48

I’ve just carried out a quick (non scientific) FB survey on its current use. I asked in English, so I’m assuming that the English language was implied in the responses.

First indications gave a “no” for SE & SW Wales. Zero response elsewhere except for the NE of England, where it is still very much part of the Lingo, even amongst the 50s age group. :slight_smile:

The meaning is very much equivalent to Catrin’s Cymraeg example.

3 Likes
#49

I’m pretty passionate about Welsh being on the curriculum here in Wales, but I think BSL should be on the curriculum throughout the whole of the UK. I have to confess that my signing is minimal (I did some training quite a few years ago and haven’t really had the chance to use it), but at least it gave me a tiny insight into the language.

5 Likes
#50

I was briefly at school with a very clever, totally deaf girl. I have reason to feel guilty. I had been a new girl and had to work very hard to fit in. When she arrived, she instantly became top in all subjects, A deputation came to ask me if I could beat her. Clearly they had all worked out that I had been doing just enough to come top, but only by the odd mark and not in all subjects. Instead of saying, “That isn’t very welcoming!” I luxuriated in the discovery that I was now one of the gang and promised to do my best. None of us knew she was deaf. I did some work and came top in more subjects. Later I found out she was deaf and gained huge respect for her as I doubted if I could ever learn to lip read! I still feel that way and congratulate @cwningen and @cat-1’s daughter on being able to do it! Nobody ever mentioned signing in those days. I wish it was taught!
Oh, we moved again and I left that school and made sure to come no higher than mid-way up my new class in all subjects, except Chemistry, the teacher of which annoyed me by defacing my book with red ink for no good reason! I came top in her subject out of devilment and sealed my fate as I got labelled as a scientist!

4 Likes
#51

It’s amazing what communication can be managed. I too did a brief course in BSL years ago but had forgotten everything except the awareness that it existed. Recently I happened to sit at the next table to a Deaf man in a coffee shop and he initiated a conversation. With a lot of inventiveness and non-standard signs on my part we managed to exchange our thoughts on the new coffee shop, the old leisure centre and the benefits of using a gym versus walking in the fresh air. The conversation was largely due to his efforts - I would never have tried to start a conversation in a language I didn’t know.
Sue

1 Like
#52

Might have been mentioned already but there was an announcement "New resources to promote Welsh sign language"(my attempted translation) on Radio Cymru this morning:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymrufyw/42878451
(seems to have been ignored by BBC Wales though)

2 Likes
#53

Seems I’ve maligned BBC Wales - there’s a report in Saesneg on this on their NW Wales page: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-north-west-wales-42889478

1 Like
#54

It’s a very hard line to walk, definitely, although I do know people who have managed to both adopt the local language and keep their own alive at home. I have friends who’ll speak English when in public, but keep their mother tongue as the language of home and family. Unfortunately it’s not always passed down to the younger generations, but most of the people I know who grew up in multilingual households really value that part of their upbringing. Conversely I know people who had a similar experience to me growing up, and we all seem to resent not being taught the family language. Myself, I really don’t see why it has to be a zero sum game. Surely the more exposure to languages you give a child, the better?

6 Likes
#55

BBC says today, in the Wales section, that Bangor University is sponsoring, teaching BSL in schools.

2 Likes
#56

Absolutely, Karla. I really wish I knew some Irish. Its part of my inheritance that has been given away by my own people! One of my cousins is very into Irish language and culture, but he has learnt it, mainly through music as he is a well-known player of the uillean (unsure of spelling) pipes. The music culture of Ireland is very strong and obviously tied up with preservation of the language.

2 Likes
#57

I currently live in Alabama in the United States, but grew up in Southern Louisiana. When I was growing up, the area I lived in had a strong French language population with road signs and etc being put up in French. There were French language radio stations though out most of Southern Louisiana.

My mother-in-law grew up speaking French but would be slapped if she spoke French in school. She never taught any of her children Cajun French as it was looked down upon in those days. Gradually the language has shifted to almost all English over the last 30 years or so. The French is being lost at an alarming rate. There are ads desperately seeking French speakers for the nursing homes as no one really Speaks Cajun French nowadays. When I was a child I had a friend from a family who mostly spoke French and we helped each other learn new words in each other’s language. That’s why I still remember a bit of naughty language in Cajun French. :slight_smile:

My own family mostly comes from western England and Wales originally sometimes during the 1800’s, both on my mother’s and father’s sides. My husband’s family is Cajun French on his mother’s side and Irish on his father’s side (his grandparents emigrated from Ireland during the 1910s). His grandparents did not speak much Irish to their children as they thought it backwards and useless for getting ahead in the United States.

I remember a time when my father-in-law grew annoyed with another group of people speaking Spanish at a restaurant we were eating at. I asked him why he was annoyed as they were having their own conversation which did not involve us. He really did not have an answer for that. I love hearing other languages spoken and usually spend my time trying to find patterns in what I’m hearing. That’s probably why I love cryptogram puzzles.

I have myasthenia gravis, an autoimmue disease, and the antibodies my body makes against the transmission of signals from the nerves to the muscles also seems to affect the area in the brain concerned with converting a word from what I’m thinking to what I’m saying. It shows itself in ways like when I’m talking and all of a sudden I get long pauses trying to get a single, simple word out. So I decided to learn a new language to see if learning new words and sounds would help me.

So I’m learning Welsh and my daughter is taking classes in Chinese. We both sit down together and play the Duolingo app together each in our respective languages we are learning. It’s a lot of fun. So in our house learning languages are regarded as a lot of fun.

10 Likes
#58

I too have found this. Before I started learning Welsh, I was on a mini bus to an evening dinner dance and everyone spoke English to me. However, they switched over to Welsh unintentionally and they only realised this when they asked me a question in Welsh! I told them no apology necessary as Welsh is their first language, and I try to speak to them in Welsh too now.

2 Likes
#59

It is good to know, then, that we have an SSiW safari park where mistakes are both encouraged and corrected so that when we hit the wilds we will have our ‘ng’, ‘ngh’, ‘ll’, ‘ch’ and 'dd’s spit spot and be able to make idioms of ourselves
:crazy_face:

2 Likes
#60

I think that’s going to be my new ambition :grinning:

2 Likes