I think I’m right in saying that the conjunction ‘na’ has appeared in the 6 month course for the first time in Challenge 21 “My mother told me that I shouldn’t …” Ddudodd fy mam withal fi na ddylwn i ddim… yn “ Even after consulting a grammar book I am not clear when or why to use this ‘na’ or ‘nad’.
this ‘na’ means a ‘negative that’, and it becomes nad if it precedes a word starting with a vowel .
By a happy (and spooky) coincidence I have just written about this little word for the new book.
Thank your, and does it cause a mutation?
yes - as in your example where it has turned ‘dylwn’ into ‘ddylwn’
Llawer o Ddiolch! Dw i’n meddwl bo’fi deall rwan! Ond “Dw i’n siwr na fo sy’n iawn”! Y Geiriadur yn ol!
That’s a different na
Am I right in saying that in the Southern Course, ‘na’ turns to ‘nag’ before a vowel, instead of ‘nad’?
I remember something from Level 1, along the lines of ‘she said she doesn’t like’ being ‘dwedodd hi nag yw hi’n hoffi’
Unfortunately, na can be a confusing little critter. The na that changes to nag before a vowel is a different na to the one that changes to nad before a vowel. The one that changes to nag is not a negative marker like the one that changes to nad.
What Siaron said.
And there’s also a nad that’s always nad regardless of what follows.
Mae’n amlwg nad fo sy ar fai
It’s clear that it is not he who is to blame
This is all great fun.
eep, whats the na that changes to nag then? I just assumed it was the same
Yes, I was just about to reply too.
In the southern course nag is used in place of nad ie to mean ‘that not’. So I believe what you said is correct @santiago_mauricio - either that or one of my learning tectonic plates is about to shift under me (although that would be ok, of course )
@garethrking I think you’re gonna have to help me with this one - I’m sure you have a more straightforward way of explaining it than the explanation I’ve been trying to write - in trying to keep it simple, it’s getting more confusing!
maybe this is over-simplifying (because nag pops up in other uses too, which is where I was confusing myself trying to explain without confusing anyone else), but until Gareth kindly jumps in and rescues me - ydyn is a form of bod that starts with a vowel so has a nag, not a nad.
Well the course notes there appear to be slightly wrong, or there’s a typo - that they’re not is nad ydyn nhw, while nag ydyn nhw means are they? (tag question on NEG statement).
Dw i’n siwr nad ydyn nhw’n rhy gostus - I’m sure that they’re not too expensive
Tydyn nhw ddim yn rhy gostus i ti, nag ydyn nhw? - They’re not too expensive for you, are they?
So basically the negative that is na(d), while the question tag is na(g).
In some regions, by the way, you also sometimes hear nad sy for sy ddim:
Pobol nad sy’n siarad Cymraeg - People who don’t speak Welsh (= Pobol sy ddim yn siarad Cymraeg).
The academics and the language police practically faint at this - let them, it’s awfully common among native speakers and therefore actually makes you sound particularly authentic.
Then there’s also na = than - this is nag before vowels:
Mae platinwm yn ddrutach nag aur - Platinum is costlier than gold
And there’s also the nad which is always nad (that sounds like something from Monty P and the Holy Grail, doesn’t it? - ‘We seek the Nad which is always Nad!’) - the one used for negative that in focused sentences:
Dw i’n siwr nad Gerwyn dorrodd y ffenest - I’m sure that it wasn’t Gerwyn who broke the window.
This is REALLY good fun!
I think that the southern course uses nag but I never say never…we can ask @Deborah-SSi or @Iestyn to be sure.
To be honest the existence of variations and permutations and things I couldn’t find in a book which initially surprised me (and troubled me somewhat!) - have ended up being a big part of what I’ve taken away…
There are sentences in the southern course where I would always write “nad” as that’s what I’ve been taught in traditional courses, but in the course notes it’s written as “nag” as that’s what it sounds like in casual speech, e.g. dwedon nhw wrthon ni nag o’n nhw’n moyn esbonio beth oedd yn digwydd, in Level 2 Challenge 9. That just happens to be one that I happen to have written down as an example, but yes, there are more in the course notes.
I tried listening out for it on Pobol y Cwm while I was having breakfast, as I know I’ve heard it used like that occasionally in that programme, but it wasn’t easy to eat and listen intently so I didn’t spot anything
Perhaps what we need is for @iestyn and @garethrking to have a little discussion about it here and clarify it for anyone who’s interested?