There aren’t really many bands/TV programmes/radio that are in Welsh that I’m that into. It doesn’t help that I’m not a big media-consumer at all in any language.
I know we all need to be supporting the language, and I’m only too aware that as an immigrant to Wales (especially as one from England) I’m held to a higher standard when it comes to level of Welsh language support. I have to be seen to be trying. The comments do wear away at me to be honest. I support independence for Wales but I don’t feel very integrated here at all.
So what would people’s advice be? I’m probably asking in the wrong place as I know SSiW is full of enthusiastic learners, who I’m full of admiration and jelousy for! For the last few weeks I’ve decided to pause on anything Welsh language related but the passion hasn’t come back.
I would say it’s language I HAVE to learn (for work, feeling accepted etc.) rather than WANT to, so far.
Just a note to clarify I hope this post doesn’t come accross as anti-Welsh. Let me know if it does. I really wish I could become one of those learners who I regularly meet who looks forward all year to the Eisteddfod, and reads about Welsh history and sings in a chapel choir… But I’m just not!
I’ve definitely had periods where my enthusiasm has waned and I can’t find the impetus to do any active learning. I think the key in these times is to find a way that makes contact with the language fun and enjoyable.
If you’ve not found Welsh media that you particularly enjoy, what sort of TV, films, music do you enjoy in English? Any examples of specific shows/bands?
Other than that, what else do you enjoy doing in your spare time? Perhaps theres a way to combine that with Welsh?
Lastly, I think if you can form a friendship with a Welsh learner/speaker, that may give you further reason to keep using what you know and learn more.
S’mae
Whilst learning Irish and Cymraeg i seldom listened to radio or watched television in either language. I always found them beyond me. But i got as basic reading books as possible. There is a wealth of beginners reading books in Cymraeg from beginners up to a much higher level. I bought almost every llyfr Cymraeg i could find if i heard that they were basic. I read them again and again. I also started going to the zoom sessions almost from the beginning. I attended 6 sessions last week. Obviously at the start i struggled but i hung in there and now ill go to any level. Which for some reason i understand more than the aforementioned radio and television. You have to understand how you learn, because i believe everyone learns in different ways and at different speeds. I learn repetitively. My tolerance to listen to something repeatedly is very high. I aim for the lowest common denominator weather in reading or listening and happy to sit there only moving on when im ready otherwise i usually end up backtracking. There also has to be an enjoyment element. I have a few friends in a WhatsApp group we have been reading, writing, chatting, helping and encouraging each other for ages now. But more importantly we have an absolute blast. Find your learning process, enjoy it and find people to enjoy it with.
Pob lwc
Thanks for your reply. I don’t know if this is really a reply to your message or just Rant Part 2, so if it’s the latter, feel free to ignore!
At this point the lack of motivation has festered into pure resentment. I just don’t enjoy using it, and come away from interactions feeling crummy (so there’s no pay-off).
It’s funny because outside of learning Welsh I am a very self-disciplined person. When it comes to necessities like daily exercise, eating healthily and household chores I have a will of steel! Yet for some reason with learning Welsh I just cannot bring myself to.
I was going to a chat group where everyone was nice and supportive but unfortunately it’s on a midweek afternoon so I have to drop lucrative, rent-paying overtime at work to go there.
There are lots of Welsh speakers at work, but there’s a strong hierarchy there and to be honest I’m more than a bit scared of native speakers. Some of them are patient but my speaking and comprehension fall apart in front of them. Lots of learners at work too but none who are keen to talk to me (or each other, to be fair; that considered maybe I am doing OK).
I work in a customer-service type job where you really do need to be speaking correct Welsh. Several colleagues have made it clear that a Cymro Cymraeg is better than a person [sy’ wedi dysgu] Cymraeg. That kind of stuff really stings.
I feel a bit self-conscious saying what I like doing in my spare time as I’m kind of a weirdo but here goes… Well to start with I don’t have a TV… But I love being outdoors hiking, running, camping, travel. When I’m at home I do a lot of cooking and lots of craft projects. I don’t think from what I’ve seen that there’s anything to do with those for Welsh learners though.
Summary because that was a long rant:
-I’m scared of native speakers
-I hate making mistakes
-I let narrow-minded comments get to me too much. I need to be more thick-skinned
-I haven’t found a mindset where I enjoy and feel good after native-speaker interactions
-I’ve found a wonderfully supportive group but everyone’s retired and so I have to skip work to go… and while they’re all great, I’d also love to talk to people my own age
-I’m frustrated seeing all these other learners who have made progress so quickly, made lots of friends in this country and speak better Welsh, and all in half the time I’ve taken
Sometimes a good rant is necessary (or even a bit enjoyable!)
While native speakers are going to have a bit of a head start on you this “not good enough” attitude of theirs isn’t very helpful. You’re learning which is a great amount of effort that I’d hope people would appreciate. Wales needs more Welsh speakers and that means they need more learners.
Most jobs involve a lot of area specific vocab to be learned and I’m guessing yours may be the same - you don’t need to learn all the Welsh to be good at the job. Perhaps you could focus on the most useful vocab?
Nothing wrong with being a weirdo but to be honest your hobbies sound pretty cool! I also like outdoorsy stuff, cooking and being creative. Just a few suggestions to go with these hopefully one or two sound fun;
theres a Welsh version of couch to 5k if you’re not a seasoned runner
there are Welsh language groups for hiking you could join
see if you can find walking route directions in Welsh for you to follow. A quick Google search brought up examples in several areas, eg. These route guides for Blaenau Gwent Llwybrau Lleol | Blaenau Gwent CBC
use a map to make your own routes, then write the directions in Welsh for you to follow. Could be quite a fun challenge! (Just take the map as backup!)
buy a Welsh language cook book to follow the recipes
there must be Welsh language YouTube videos/channels for cooking/crafts?
write a blog explaining what hikes/food/crafts you’ve done recently, even if its just using a sprinkling of Welsh words to start with
try to narrate in your head in Welsh what you’re doing when you’re doing a hobby. Might sound silly, but it helps me be quicker at thinking how to say things, and prompts me to look up vocab
I hope there’s something in here that might be a little bit fun for you
Perhaps things like writing a blog and other solo tasks may be a good place to start, as you don’t need to do any of it publicly. While I definitely think practice with others is essential eventually, if this helps you feel more confident then doing these is better than no practice at all
What or when do you actually enjoy learning Welsh and with what activities/events?
Nothing wrong with taking a break btw.
Your expression of your frustrations is highly welcomed here but I would advise not to become resentful against a whole language or culture when the problem lies with some toxic individuals in your environment (or whatever any other factors like a lack of cultural variety within).
“There aren’t really many bands/TV programmes/radio that are in Welsh that I’m that into.”
Well its sadly the same with many smaller European languages lacking large sums of media investment … but grassroots content creation can get better
there are youtube channels under the radar you may enjoy - why not create you own youtube channel and have some videos dabbling in Welsh on your own custom topics?
" I don’t feel very integrated here at all" How do you mean? Many Welsh born and bred I have known would share similar thoughts that they don’t feel very rooted in local culture. I learnt barely anything about Wales in my English medium schooling years in Eastern Wales…I learnt everything through older relatives or obscure books I picked up. So dont feel alone
Or … do you feel a lack of ‘integration’ due to no close friends or community?
Like the rest of Europe, theres a much broader death of close geographic communities going on … people have fewer friends nowadays on average and feel more alienated and alone (e.g. technology has made community less vital to everyday life ) - no wonder theres no real motiviation, social pressure or urgency to learn it…I feel that too … I have many days drifting without using my Welsh…it takes a lot of effort to use it out East without close Welsh speaking friends.
Sorry- I can see now I wasn’t clear enough that I was referring primarily to my workplace when I talk about narrow-mindedness. And the resentment is towards myself for not being better at languages, more confident and for not enjoying it more.
‘Toxic’ is the absolute definition of my workplace. It is like stepping back into the 1950s… I love my actual work, and the department I mostly work for, but on an average week I am often left wondering if so-and-so doesn’t like me because a.) I’m English; b.) I’m gay; c.) I grew up on a council estate; or d.) I missed a mutation once when speaking Welsh three months ago. Racism, sexism and every other -ism is unfortunately live and well at my job, and as I’ve no other social circle here outside of it, it does get tiring. Sorry, I’m ranting again! …the other thing with having no social life is that these little frustrations build up and up until I eventually release them here on SSiW.
I’ll respond to your other helpful suggestions in a bit, I just wanted to get this out there as I don’t want people to take it the wrong way (and I don’t want to become someone who does resent the language, like most of my colleagues who are Welsh born-and-bred but who didn’t get the opportunity to learn and have been criticised for it.
Thank you for your suggestions. Part of being bad at technology and not knowing anyone is that I have no idea what’s out there!
I will definitely have a look at more of what Gwent offer as I know they have a huge amount of free stuff for learners.
I used to write everyday a little ‘diary’-type thing in Welsh and although it’s not speaking I did used to enjoy doing that. If I really wanted to I could change my schedule around and get to that chat session I attended briefly. I think it would be more sensible to aim to attend for one hour, rather than the full two+ hours. I am a perfectionist and I am not used to the idea that doing a little is better than doing nothing…to use an analogy close to my heart, I simply cannot just give my kitchen surfaces a quick wipe-down: I have to instead be scrubbing the floor and deep-cleaning the oven. The frustration I feel at not being able to speak Welsh perfectly is immense. I tend to say that I’ve been learning Welsh for 4 years, not counting the 3 months each year when there was no Dysgu Cymraeg course due to term holidays, the Covid-19 global pandemic, and the many times when life, health and mental health gave me other more pressing priorities.
I did listen passively to some bands I used to like who sing in Welsh- Los Blancos and Melys mostly and one or two songs by Geraint Jarman. I find it hard to understand the lyrics compared to speaking so it’s a bit frustrating, plus it feels like homework, rather than something I do for pleasure. I need to find a way to trick myself into not having this mindset with Welsh language activities.
Thanks for your suggestions and got not taking offense either. It’s hard to have a conversation about how Welsh native speakers relate to learners and vice-versa, particularly those who for example, may not be Welsh, or white, etc. etc. Frustrations boil over when you’re trying to do a good job, be a model immigrant and all while speaking a different language!
The main thing is that I really need to find a way to be more confident, and to have an outlet to get this kind of frustration off my chest before I share it here!
Your work colleagues sound like some of the people I used to encounter way back in the late 70s and early 80s. I thought that attitude had died out, but sadly it seems not. One of the reasons It’s taken me literally decades to become a confident speaker was the attitude of some Cymry Cymraeg. If you couldn’t speak flawlessly, they they preferred you to use English. Actually that attitude wasn’t just applied to learners, it was also aimed at native speakers who didn’t speak “posh” Welsh. People from places like Blaenau Ffestiniog suffered prejudice when applying for jobs. The same happens in England, of course, where some accents are considered inferior.
I would definitely suggest attending the supportive group for an hour or even half an hour. Our weekly chat group – and yes, we are almost all retired – is very much a drop in when you can and stay for as long as you’re able.
Regarding YouTube, sadly there probably isn’t much. I started my channel making videos in Welsh, but rather lost heart when YouTube started adding adverts that I have no way of turning off. I don’t get a penny from them either, not that I want income from them. The videos were a way of me practising my Welsh in a way that I hoped might help others. Anyway, the problem with YouTube is that the majority of videos are in English, even those made by people whose first language is not English.
You may have more luck with guided walks in Welsh. These certainly happen up here in Gwynedd. You could also consider keeping a journal or blog focused on what interests you.
Just one last thought… Any chance of finding a better job with colleagues who have a better attitude to Welsh? Even if not now, perhaps something to keep at the back of your mind for the future.
Thanks for your reply. I actually find it more motivating to hear ‘realistic’ learning Welsh journeys like yours where there has been setbacks. It’s a lot more inspiring.
I will try and have a more thorough search on YouTube I think. I’ve found once you find one or two decent channels the algorithm is fairly good at recommending related ones.
And yes, a different job is definitely a long-term goal I’m looking at!
And the resentment is towards myself for not being better at languages
This bit stands out for me - it sounds as though you’re carrying some school-related pain around learning - and you’re being hard on yourself, when the underlying truth is that your brain is neurologically healthy enough to deal with at least one language (English) and therefore will deal fine with others if it’s given the right input. If you haven’t been given the right input yet, that’s not your fault
You say you’ve been learning with Dysgu Cymraeg for four years, but you don’t say what (if any) use you make of SaySomethinginWelsh? I can probably give more useful advice on that particular front
In general, though, please don’t blame yourself when things aren’t feeling good - being hard on yourself never really helps - my guess is that those feelings are an important sign that you need to be looking for different approaches (and possibly a different job!), which is exactly what you’re doing here, so you should feel good about taking positive action
Ah, to clarify, I stopped the Dysgu Cymraeg courses once I finished Sylfaen. I’ve been doing SSiW in fits and starts, though I was doing one lesson a day till a few weeks ago. I think I got up to halfway through Level 3. I definitely think it’s a good method, though I struggled to get to grips with how I ought to use it at first, and I still write every new word and sentence structure down. I feel more comfy on the knowledge I’m using it the way that’s best for me nowadays.
Actually I’m excited to see if you do a course for French at some point, but no pressure! I imagine more confident people get more out of the SSiW method, but that probably goes for any system of learning. That’s my challenge at the moment. I really think if I can crack the confidence/fear of mistakes problem, the language part would be [comparatively] easy!
Welsh aside - that sounds terrible! I also tick three of those boxes (I didn’t grow up on a council estate, but not in a mansion either!) and being in an environment where any of them is a problem for people would be unbearable. My every sympathy. (I would suggest looking for another job, but I know it’s not always that simple…)
Ah, this is very interesting. If you’ve reached halfway through Level 3, your main focus should absolutely be conversational interaction.
Specifically, I’d love to hear that you’d done a single, two hour one-to-one conversation with a confident Welsh speaker, without using any English. I would predict that you would find the first half hour difficult and frustrating, the next half hour very tiring, but the second hour increasingly exciting.
I just feel I need to say that if anyone is an introvert and/or autistic or ADHD, this is asking an awful lot. I feel totally wiped out after a 2 hour conversation in my native English and need to spend the rest of the day in solitude. I can do it if it’s family or an old friend and we’re catching up on news, but I couldn’t converse with a stranger for 2 hours because I wouldn’t have a clue what to talk about.
I enjoy the Welsh group chats in the cafe because we have enough interests in common, mainly local news, what we’ve been doing during the week, what we’re watching on S4C, and craft projects we’re working on. And of course being a group, different topics arise naturally. But one-to-one with someone I don’t know is extraordinarily difficult.
Some years ago when I was unemployed, I tried offering English conversation practice via italki. I struggled to cope with one hour and that was with fluent speakers speaking my native language. I found it far too stressful and gave up.
Serious question, what do extroverts talk about during this sort of conversation?
I know exactly what you mean. By nature, I’m quite an introverted person, preferring to listen rather than talk, unless I know the people well. Sometimes I just hit it off with another person and it’s easy to chat with them - they feel like an old friend straight away - but other times, 10 minutes seems like forever!
To me, the only way to have a 2-hour conversation, is to have built up a “chat relationship” with another person, a learner or first language speaker, gradually over the time that you’ve been learning. Ideally, the person will be someone you know, from your community, so you can meet face to face and you know that you enjoy similar things. To suddenly have a 2-hour conversation with someone you haven’t spoken to before, over Zoom, would be an extremely difficult task for the majority of people.
So the best thing, if you don’t have that relationship with someone who lives near you, is to take advantage of the online chat sessions offered in Zoom from early in your learning and gradually get to know others, building up those friendships. There is now a ‘spin off’ group organised by SSiWers from the SSiW sessions which takes place on a Saturday morning, and from what I hear, the participants have a great relationship, enjoy the sessions together, and have become good friends. Something like that makes it possible.
Yes, a lot of the steps involved in language acquisition are different in terms of their difficulty for people with different social/neurological experiences - and it’s very important for everyone to be kind to themselves when something feels difficult - thank you for making that point, Margaret and Deborah
It’s also important, I think, for people to have clarity on what actions will trigger what responses - extended time in 1:1 conversations has a massively accelerative impact on acquisition and confidence, so it’s very, very worthwhile figuring out the structures that will help you reach that point
I feel exactly the same! What on earth do normal people discuss?
I have been very isolated much of my life, and I really struggle to socialise. Very little is ever happening with me, and I feel like I’m interrogating the other person if I try to keep the focus on them by asking questions. Talking is exhausting, so all it takes is a couple of bad weeks, and… I’ve skipped a lot of the video and in-person chats lately, and just like always, I feel left behind and like I don’t fit in.
One of my problems is that I do quite a lot of things, but I’m a dabbler rather than an expert. I don’t know whether it’s still going, but there used to be a regular zoom for SSiW photographers. To some people I appear to be quite a keen photographer. I take a lot of photos and tweak them and put them on Flickr. But I attended one of the photography sessions and had nothing to say because I was hugely out of my depth amongst the talk of lenses and what camera people preferred. Besides, photography is something I do, not something I talk about. The same thing goes for other activities like knitting and crochet. What can you say about knitting a sock or crocheting a blanket? Not much.
My husband and I don’t watch much TV and we don’t watch the popular programmes. I don’t listen to music. I don’t do gardening or have any interest in sport. My taste in reading is considered weird by most people (SF/fantasy) and, again, I don’t talk about reading, I just do it.
I recently bought a cheap lyre (see what I mean about being a dabbler?) and I’m enjoying finding simple tunes and plinking them out, that’s one or at most two sentences in a conversation. Politics and current affairs potentially leads to conflict if the other person is not of the same opinion…
So I have no idea how I would sustain a conversation of more than 15 minutes with a total stranger and once we’d run out of where do you live, where do you come from originally, where would we go from there? I am at a loss. I would really like it if any extroverts reading this thread could offer some suggestions and explain what they find to talk about at such length because it would be useful. I sometimes feel I should be doing more to nurture new speakers, but due to my lack of general conversational skills, I have only been able to help and encourage the people who come to our weekly chat session.
but to be honest your hobbies sound pretty cool! I also like outdoorsy stuff, cooking and being creative. Just a few suggestions to go with these hopefully one or two sound fun;
Talking is exhausting, so all it takes is a couple of bad weeks, and… I’ve skipped a lot of the video and in-person chats lately, and just like always, I feel left behind and like I don’t fit in.