Then the ‘victim’ can pick and choose who they accuse of racism depending on what is being said and who is saying what at the time. It’s a flawed system that can easily be exploited. There is no doubt in my mind that accusations of racism in many debates, not just BLM, have been used by the left against opponents as a way of shutting down meaningful debate and avoiding criticism.
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I refer you to my earlier comment as to my views on this. A defensive position and an absence of true reflection is often covered by accusations of shutting down debate.
I think we should all come from the assumption that we are conditioned in a racist society and can do more to understand other’s points of view.
I have no problem understanding others point of view, but if the methods used to promote that viewpoint are malicious and undemocratic then they must be challenged and held accountable.
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Dishonesty and malice can be levelled at many recent campaigns.
Protest is not undemocratic. Destruction of property is not BLMs agenda.
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Very true and I’m not excusing other campaigns but it’s BLM we are talking about here.
Protest is not undemocratic but destruction and vandalism of others property is. It may not be in their agenda but it happened/is happening and they didn’t do a very good job of stopping it in places like Portland and other US cities. Granted these are in America but it’s also policy of BLM UK to import US race problems to the UK as a platform which to protest from.
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I think a sticking point we have here in the conversation is the idea of a centralised organisation. BLM is not such an organisation as far as I understand. I’ve never seen a policy that states the import of US ideas.
This country does have an issue with racism. The disporportionate figures of stop and search targets, and the impact of health inequalities as felt by minority communities. As far as I’ve read, that has been the main focus in this country.
Do you have any other sources to counter that? I’d be happy to read.
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Hi David, I’m sorry to interject but if I may draw us back to your original statement for a second and, for me, where the problem started.
“One of my worst fears is … the BLM agenda …”
You singled out BLM as the problem where a more sweeping “rioters on the streets” not mentioning BLM kind of statement could have avoided a lot. I think we all agree that violence and rioting is abhorable and inexcusable.
The word agenda was specifically used in the original statement.
It looks to me that a “sweeping and general statement … about BLM” was maybe not meant but has never been recinded. It was censored by the site moderators then deleted by you but not retracted.
Have you seen the Trial of the Chicago 7? Holding organisers accountable for the actions of others is a classic establishment tactic to detract from the point.
As we’re talking specifically about BLM. May I ask, do you disagree that there is a need for systemic change to make a more equal society?
Hi Aran, I think there needs to be a clear differentiation made between the BLM which seeks to simply make a point that too many Black people have been killed in the US, although white people have also been killed by black cops and white cops as well, and the political aims of part of the BLM movement. I personally have always been totally anti-discrimination, and as such have always condemned all racism, and gender politics. However, I am equally sure that abolishing the Police, as parts of the BLM are calling for, is not the answer to anything.
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David, I haven’t heard any BLM supporters over here in the UK calling for the police to be abolished, though I’m sure there have been calls for changes to the way our police operate. We don’t want to muddle US issues with UK issues and some police forces in the US look more like the military than a civil organisation tasked with keeping the peace and tackling crime, hence calls from some quarters to “defund the police”.
You need to remember that what some people who identify as BLM supporters say on social media is a long way from being any sort of official policy statement and as others have said in this thread, there is no actual BLM organisation. It’s a disparate collection of people using the same rallying cry.
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Hi Margaret, I think you start by making the precise two points, as to why although I am totally against racism, and discrimination of any sort, I am not comfortable with the sanctifying of BLM and the calling of anyone who dares to question any of it, as a racist. It is because many people conflate the issues in the US (much more serious) with those of the UK, and because it is a disparate umbrella type organisation, that has allowed some with the most sinister of motives to act under that umbrella. One question, that not one person has been able to answer as yet, is as BLM is such a disparate organisation, I agree, where has the money gone, raised in the name of BLM in the UK? I must also repeat that white people have also been killed by white cops, and black cops in the US, where racial tensions, particularly in the South are severe and getting much worse, sadly. The treatment of black men in the US in particular, is alarming and wrong, but poor white people are also mistreated.
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Any organisation which doesn’t have strict membership requirements will get people claiming to be part of the movement who also do things that are questionable or downright undesirable. As there is no central BLM organisation, there is no one who can expel people who might go too far. However, I don’t think that a thread on the SSiW forum is the place to start discussing things like where money went.
The killing of George Floyd in full view of a crowd of people who videoed the whole thing was a wake up call. Though nothing quite so horrendous has happened here in the UK, it has certainly raised issues that need addressing and encouraged people to speak out. As this is a forum about learning Welsh, I thought I’d share the speech made by Seren Jones, a young black Welsh woman, at the Eisteddfod Amgen.
Here is it is in Welsh: Araith Llywydd y Dydd Seren Jones.
And here is the English transcript.
Arguing about what is and isn’t racist will generate more heat than light and won’t lead to any sort of useful outcome. But we need to examine our biases and preconceptions and do what we can to challenge racism wherever we see it.
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Hear hear
In the academic field of social injustice and race relations this type of argument is known as “white fragility” (Robin DiAngelo)
A campaign to raise awareness of one thing does not deny the existence of another.
Sepsis awareness week does not mean we stop talking about cancer.
Raising the awareness of injustice experienced by black people does not deny the existence against white people.
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Anthony, I am simply pointing out that it is not a problem that is colour based alone. the academic field is full of hot air and nonsense at times.
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SSIW may not be the most appropriate place to discuss anything related to BLM, yet I did not begin the discussion, and you replied to me first, and I made the point about the money in response to a point you raised, which you then ignored, which is often the way with people from the Academic world. I would advise many people to listen to the wise worlds from Morgan Freeman, who says that people are people and using colour as an issue, is itself perpetuating the problem, and subliminally racist. His words, not mine, yet he speaks a lot of sense
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Why not keep SSIW out of politics irrespective of the strength of one’s opinions? Already, I see that the forum has turned into the wider issues of woke politics. Or shouldn’t questions like this be raised?
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Everyone is entitled to change their opinion as they learn more. Morgan Freeman has very much changed his opinion from the interview you are alluding to. Which I believe was 2008
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Firstly, I think that is a rather rude remark.
Secondly, even a quick google search suggests that the various BLM groups in the UK have not yet distributed the money raised. According to various interviews, whilst they will be using the money to support disadvantaged black communities, no decisions have been made as to which ones yet since a) they are all volunteers and b) covid isn’t exactly helping the situation. Where some money has been spent, it has been on things like providing masks and hand sanitiser for those taking part in their peaceful demonstrations.
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You simply MUST have known that this was going to fail the friendliness test. I specifically asked you to make an overt effort to be friendly, and you have chosen to disregard that request. I’m now giving you an official warning - any further posts from you which strike me as unfriendly will lead to a suspension.
As I’ve said in other posts (which of course you may not have read) SSiW is a community, and like all communities, the people here are not single issue people, and have a range of opinions and interests as well as learning Welsh. This has also always been a particularly friendly place, and where complex and emotional discussions can be handled with friendliness and politeness, without descending into the bile that we see in most parts of the internet, I believe we all win.
But as you can see in this thread, we pay particular attention to these kinds of discussions, and if people fail to keep to the required standards of friendliness, we will step in.
I think this thread has now covered pretty much all possible talking points that we would be willing to host, and I think it would be good if we brought the discussion to a close. If you have any further points that you are absolutely burning to make, please sit on them for a few days, and if you still feel that it’s important to make them, send me a private message and I’ll see if I agree 
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