Yn braf

So, I was walking along this morning having my usual mumbling conversation with myself in Welsh and I said “Mae’r tywydd yn braf iawn heddiw”

I’ve probably said that or some variant of it dozens of times or more, but suddenly I stopped in my tracks and wondered “Why isn’t it yn fraf ?” I couldn’t come up with any answer other than that it sounded awkward.

Do I have it wrong, or is this some odd one-off exception, or is there some good explanation that is eluding me?

2 Likes

Shwmae Jeff.
I believe the reason is one involving gender. “Braf” is a masculine word, so generally wouldn’t mutate. Its usually feminine words that causes a soft mutation in certain circumstances.
I’m sure someone on the forum who is clued up with Welsh grammar will stop by and give a better, more detailed explanation about this soon, but this is the best I can explain it!

2 Likes

S’mae Jeff?

braf is one of a number of words in Welsh that does not undergo soft mutation, although I understand that yn fraf can be heard in some parts of Cymru, although I don’t know where exactly.

Hwyl,

Stu

3 Likes

Because. :wink:

Bit more detail -

“Braf” is an adjective, and adjectives would normally soft mutate when used in the way you say, as you know.

But there are some words in Welsh which are just resistant to mutations. Sometimes because they are already mutated, or because bits have been dropped off the front, or sometimes because they are recent borrowings, or whatever.
“Braf” is not a recent borrowing, you might expect it to mutate, but it’s just an exception.
The University of Wales Dictionary simply says it tends to withstand mutations except in some areas of the South.

There is apparently a bit more information in “Treigladau”, if anyone has the ?book? (I can’t find more detailed references on the online GPC).

But “it’s just become an exception (usually :wink: )” will do for me, anyway!

5 Likes

That’s interesting, stu - I didn’t know that until I just read it in the dictionary, so I have no idea whether it is commonly used, old fashioned or whatever!
Where did you get that from, could I ask?

(Always good to have any further information!)

1 Like

S’mae Owain?

The Welsh tutor at the Brasshouse mentioned it years ago, because he said it that way (he said), but taught it as per the Mynediad course, unmutated. I have seen it written somewhere fairly recently as well, so will try to track down which of my books had it in…

Hwyl,

Stu

3 Likes

Ah, diolch yn fawr iawn!
Always good to have reports from Welsh speakers rather than books!

I shall now keep an ear open for it :wink:

1 Like

Gareth King’s “Pocket Modern Welsh Dictionary” (if you have a huge pocket) has a note to that effect. He just says that “usually it is not susceptible to soft mutations … although [mae’n fraf] is heard in some regions.”

4 Likes

Well, you know that’s going to be from at least some Welsh speaker’s usage rather than from (other) books!

A discussion on the matter on maes-e here-

http://maes-e.com/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=21482

If you understand all that, you’re a better man than I am, Gunga Din!

Interesting message in that link though, saying according to “Treigladau a’u Cystrawen” by TJ Morgan (the “Treigladau” referred to in the GPC?), it was borrowed from French/English in the north first and as a borrowed word didn’t mutate. Then it was borrowed into the South of Wales - as a Welsh word, as it were- and was thus subject to mutation!

But words borrowed in the 16th century (as “braf”, according to the GPC seems to be) tend to be mutated, (don’t they?), so not sure that helps…

Interesting discussion though! (At least, what I can understand… :wink: )

1 Like

There’s reference to Llydaweg having brav as well, and it mutating:
but I don’t think this makes it any clearer why braf is not mutated in a regular fashion by all Welsh speakers

3 Likes

Yn fraf just sounds a bit odd, doesn’t it?

I wonder if it ‘just not sounding right’ might be the simple reason it’s not used, or if it doesn’t sound right because we’re not used to hearing it?

That’s not very helpful, is it? :wink:

2 Likes

In other news, you have apparently turned into a Welsh speaker :sunny:

[Since what you describe there is a pretty close match for how a lot of first language speakers deal with mutations…:-)].

4 Likes

Thanks for the encouragement. That’s pretty much what I told myself.

I’m glad this turned out to be one of those “don’t worry about it” things. The feeling at the time was quite similar to when you look at a familiar English word and all of a sudden it seems very strange – ‘umbrella’ ??? Is that a word??

3 Likes