Wide-ranging discussion following on from point about GCSEs (from the feedback thread)

Welsh General / Questions
#23

Oh yes!

#24

Owain, can you give a simple everyday example, so I can see what you are getting at?
(I’m a northern learner, so I’d be interested to see what southern speakers are doing which is different). Diolch o flaen llaw.

#25

“nes i weld” vs “gwelais i”/“weles i” etc
“nes i fynd” vs “es i”

That sort of thing. They’re in both SSiW courses, I’m not sure how the two SSiW courses differ in dealing with them!

Edit - So, you know, something like, I don’t know! :wink:
“Nes i weld John ddoe”
Against
“Gwelais i John ddoe”, “Weles i John ddoe”
Or whatever slight variant whoever is speaking chooses. :wink:

#26

Thanks Owain.Well, yes, those are indeed in the northern courses. While I don’t have all that much experience of Welsh in the (real) Wild, the northern speakers on “Rownd a Rownd” are at least as likely to use the short past forms of “gweld” and “mynd” as they are the long ones, but I wondered if that was because they were just very common verbs, and because they are so common, the practice of using short forms has developed simply because they are shorter and easier to say (when you know them).

It would be interesting to know if southern speakers are more likely than northern speakers to use the short forms of less common verbs.

#27

Southern speakers are more likely than northern speakers to decline the verb rather than use the auxiliary “gwneud” with all verbs. :blush:
It’s only with verbs like “darganfod” or “mwynhau”, unusual in more ways than one, that the use of “gwneud” could be more common, as it were.

In my experience, through talking to people from the north and watching television and listening to the radio, the frequent and common use of “gwneud+verb” is a very northern thing. I can not speak for “rownd a rownd”, I have never seen it. It is certainly looked on round 'ere as a typically “gog thing” though :wink:

I can’t tell you when or how it developed, but declining the verb rather than using an auxiallary “gwneud” is the form by far most commonly used in the South and the literary form. :blush:

[edit- to partially illustrate the difference in usage, the use of “nes i fynd” instead of “Es i” by someone raised round here would just sound- well, rather odd! Rather than 50/50 or whatever for common verbs, you just wouldn’t hear it at all.

Thus, this is why the teacher concentrated on practising “nes I+ verb” in the north, and the declined form of the verb in the South, because of the different linguistic habits of the people there, even though they can both be heard everywhere ( as per my post above) :blush:]

#28

Odd! A post above says I deleted it. I’m sure I didn’t. Not that it matters, but to keep the thread making sense, the following was it-
"Yes, that’s the case. Both forms can be heard everywhere, but it’s very much the case that “nes i + verb” is much more common in the north, whilst declining the verb is much more common in the south. In spoken language, that is. The literary language tends towards declining the verb whatever you are. "

#29

Just out of interest when do you use “conjugate” versus “decline” nowadays. In school, admittedly many moons ago, I was used to hearing verbs being “conjugated” and nouns being “declined”. Not that it matters hugely because I understand what everyone is saying here anyway - and the observations are very interesting.

Justin

#30

Is there a difference in the way North Wales speakers and South Wales speakers treat the future tense - with the use of bydd or e;g; nai i (i’m phonetic only currently) or in conjugation of the verb in the short form?

e;g;

byddai’n gweld versus nai i weld versus welai i (excuse me if my use of “phonetics” in writing is confusing).

Justin

#31

No idea:) Probably you’re right and I’m just using words randomly. I never have to use them when I explain English grammar:)

#32

I think that was my error, rather than Stella’s?

Yes, you are quite right - for some reason, “decline” is used for showing the grammatical alteration of nouns or adjectives, whereas “conjugate” is used when referring to verbs. They did that when I was at school, and indeed nowadays too! I remember pointing that out on a strange thread about declensions on this very site, so I really should know better! (In my defence, I wasn’t correcting someone else’s error [any more than you were, of course!]) But that error does often creep in with me, for some reason!

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#33

In the South, conjugation of the verb and use of “Bydda i + verb” are both common ways of forming a future tense. “Na i + verb” is certainly a more common way of forming a future tense around here in the South than “nes i + verb” is of forming a past tense round here in the South.
Any difference doesn’t seem to have stuck out and become a remarked on, noticeable thing in the same way as the use of “nes i + verb”.
Hope that helps!

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