“Try not to give off the “vibe” that “we are doing you a favour here by helping your language to survive”.(I must confess there was a part of me that did use to think a bit like that at one time, but time and experience has taught me that that is not a good attitude, and I try to banish it now).”
That’s extremely honest of you to say that, and you’re absolutely right - it isn’t the right attitude to have. Thanks for highlighting this.
Extremely well-said, @stella
There are some simple reasons also on the Italian/French border why this happens to us. The majority of foreigners at the local Italian markets are French. The market stall owners all equip themselves to speak French and if they hear a foreign accent they assume we are French.
And commercially it pays to speak French to all these foreign shoppers whose wallets seem to be a little fuller than those of the locals.
Eirwen grits her teeth, smiles, and fights on in Italian. And let’s face it we are here because we love it, the markets, the Italians and the whole ambience,
Justin
Although I think I am reasonably fluent I met a member of our local Welsh society whose first language is Welsh and during our conversation she said that she would prefer to speak with people who are completely fluent. When asked what sorts of activities were in the area I sent her a list by email of the things I do and she replied that she was not aware that so many things happened and that she would try and join our coffee mornings in the new year maybe with her husband who is learning Welsh. Is this a step forward in a very Anglicised area?
The other side of the coin is that if Welsh speakers prefer not to speak Welsh with us, then we, as learners just have to accept that with a smile. I must say though that my own attempts in Welsh speaking areas have always been met with kindness and politeness.
My experience, too, but with patience and encouragement added in.
Raymond
How far have you traced your family tree? Even if you have to go back to Roman days, you might well have ancestors who spoke Brythonic which was pretty close to Cymraeg!! So hen hen taid might do!!
On the actual subject which I only just found and have fast read 46 posts to get here, so must have missed a lot skimming through…
I may have mentioned elsewhere that, when I was on a Committee which organised an international Symposium, I was on a help desk when told by a delegate, “You speak very good English.” I said, “It is my mother tongue.” “That is why I was surprised at how well you speak!”, the Israeli told me, “You speak clearly and slowly, you make it easy for people who have learned English to understand!”
I just automatically, when addressing folk from non-English speaking countries, said ‘cannot’, ‘will not’, ‘did not’ etc. My grammar tends to be good. But… on a bus in Swansea I had to ‘translate’ for Americans from local fast English when they could not understand the Conductor!!
Answer to @Mererid Native speakers, try to speak slowly, try to talk as if addressing a small child… I mean choice of words, not ‘attitude’!
Must go now!!!
This one just made me smile!
In language teachers it becomes a sort of “professional deformation” - I find that when I come back home from work I speak even with my relatives and friends very loudly, slowly and distinctively, with exaggerated intonation and using hands to illustrate things that I’m saying, a lot! It annoys people immensely but that’s the only way to talk to the beginners.
I agree the best response is to smile when the going gets rough.
However, it is not exactly “do as you would be done by” behaviour to impede a learner.
Oh let’s call a spade a spade - it’s insensitive and rude to spurn someone’s efforts to learn - isn’t it - in any language and in any country. Being unhelpful to learners is not a Welsh trait at all - it happens to learners of languages in every country. The Welsh may be even kinder and more helpful than average.
It would be an interesting social experiment to compare the experiences of those learning Welsh in Wales versus those learning French in France, for example.
Smile and accept that people have the right to behave badly.Who knows a wonderful smile may warm their souls,
Justin
On my Dad’s side, a few hundred years and they were all in Cumbria (and/or possibly southern Scotland). So in my own mind I am reasonably confident that at least some of my ancestors spoke some form of Brythonic, and while I cannot claim Welsh as exactly my ancestor’s language, it is the closest living relative to it. For that reason alone, it is worth supporting, although there are other good reasons.
Oh, I think you can claim Welsh as your ancestor language if you want to! We certainly think of them as our countrymen (language of Taliesin, yr hen gogledd, y gododdin and all that!)
And “Cymru”, 'Cumbria" is a giveaway! A bit corrupted, but it’s the same country! 
And whatever names they were given later in English is completely irrelevant, so yup, your ancestors are as Welsh as you want to claim them!
I agree with @owainlurch that you can say you have family connections to Cymraeg with a clear conscience!
To @Mererid I suddenly, while making the bed this morning, realised that nothing I wrote about clear correct speech applies to those learning with SSiW!! Maybe @garethrking, if he has time, might help with this? Because all of you learning this way are learning colloquial informal ‘street Welsh’ with accents that, at least in certain areas, are totally expected of a native speaker. A local, addressed by a ‘normal’ learner, the kind who learned in class, is addressed haltingly as ‘chi’ and knows at once where he/she is with this poor learner trying his/her best!! If one of you smile sweetly and say, “Shmae, Helo, Sut wi ti?” This person is totally confused!! They are like the waiter in the restaurant car who thought I was a fellow Belgian because my French accent was too good for a learner!!
I suppose I’m asking @aran and @Iestyn to consider teaching use of ‘chi’ early in the course so that people will believe we really are learners!!!
I’ve just been reading a book published by Gwasg Carreg Gwalch ‘Think Without Limits: you CAN speak Welsh’ by Lynda Pritchard Newcombe which has reminded me of this thread as it makes a lot of the same points plus a few others. One of the chapters is ‘I’m terrified of learners’ - Why do first-language speakers switch? Worth a read if you can get hold of a copy.
This is a very interesting topic. So far the only Welsh I’ve spoken has been to first language speakers (my boyfriend and his family). They’re very encouraging, Tom’s Nain says most things to me in Welsh first followed by an explanation in English, and his Taid will always tell me relevant words in Welsh to the topic on hand, they both have done since I first met them, before I properly started learning with SSiW. They have a vested interest I guess, if we end up having kids they’ll want us to raise them speaking Welsh, so the sooner they can get me there the better in their minds!
Tom is just happy and grateful that I’m willing to put in the effort to learn his language, he tells me so regularly and it’s what keeps me going when I feel frustrated and like I’m not progressing.
Yn falch bod fy llyfr “Think without Limits” wedi helpu. Glad that my book has helped.
I have a new book out which overlaps with the earlier one but with lots of new material including a section you can show to Welsh-speakers (bilingual section as an appendix) - “Speak Welsh outside Class: You can do it.” published by Y Lolfa in July 2016.
Cofion cynnes, Lynda
News from Y Lolfa
New book aims to give Welsh leaners ‘confidence and self-belief’
There are many books available to help learners but few discuss issues linked with using the language outside class.
Speak Welsh Outside Class – You Can Do It! by Dr Lynda Pritchard Newcombe is a book for Welsh learners which gives tips on how to be more confident speaking Welsh outside the classroom and in the community. It offers tips on how to overcome these types of obstacles as learners progress with their Welsh.
The book is suitable for Welsh learners of all ages, Welsh for Adults tutors and there is also plenty of advice for Welsh speakers who would like to help learners develop and grow in confidence.
Dr Lynda Pritchard Newcombe was born in Dowlais, Merthyr Tydfil and has lived in Cardiff since 1970. She became fluent in Welsh as an adult.
‘Despite a family background in Welsh – my grandparents on my father’s side were from Llanllechid and on my mother’s side from the Gwendraeth valley - I lacked confidence to speak Welsh until I attended WLPAN and further courses at Cardiff University in 1990.’ says Lynda.
She has written many articles and books about learning Welsh and has many years’ experience teaching adults languages and has also been involved in several research projects on bilingualism and worked for Cardiff University and the Open University.
‘This is not a situation unique to Wales but experienced by second language learners in many other countries’ says Lynda, ‘Catalan learners in Spain for instance and farther afield Maori learners in New Zealand as well as Javanese learners in Indonesia.’
‘There are many books available to help learners but few discuss issues linked with using the language outside class.’ explains Lynda, ‘My experiences as a tutor and a researcher has led me to believe that many learners give up using Welsh in the community as they lack self-belief and may not always feel supported by Welsh-speakers.’
‘This is a complex issue and blame should not be apportioned to fluent speakers or learners.’ she explains, ‘This book aims to help learners and Cymry Cymraeg understand one another.’
‘The Welsh language is a treasure to use, share and enjoy,’ added Welsh tutor Nia Parry, ‘This book gives invaluable advice and guidance to learners and Welsh speakers on their learning journey and to use Welsh at every opportunity.’
http://www.ylolfa.com/en/newyddion.php?ID=589
Is this available as an ebook?
Yn anffodus Na. Unfortunately not. It is available in paperback from Gwales.com or Amazon.co.uk or from the Y Lolfa website. It is available in Waterstones, Smiths and Welsh language bookshops and costs £5.99.
Cofion cynnes, Lynda
Thanks, ordered it off amazon
Diolch yn fawr. Gobeithio y bydd y llyfr yn eich helpu chi. Hoffwn i gael eich adborth am y llyfr.
Hope the book helps. Would love to have your feedback. Don’t worry if you disagree with anything. I’d love an honest review from you on Amazon. Cofion cynnes, Lynda
And me - looking forward to a good read