Weles i (Lev 1, Ch 17)

Two questions, if I may, please:
(1) Why is it weles i rather than gweles i? There is nothing in the sentences given which could mutate the word, unless perhaps there is a hidden “Mi” at the front which is never spoken. However, I thought there either was a mi (usually in the north?) which causes a mutation or there wasn’t (in the South) which therefore doesn’t. I haven’t come across a mutation in the south being caused by a mi which isn’t there! However, I am only guessing this is the reason it is weles not gweles and may be totally wrong. Enlightenment would be appreciated, thanks.
(2) Why does the sentences give “a” before weles rather than “ac”? I thought it was always “ac” before vowels or is this a case of the “w” not really being a vowel (although surely in the unmutated word gweles the “w” is a vowel)

For 1, i think its just one of those things in speech, i suppose you save a bit of time shaving off that first syllable :smile: Its the same with wnes i as opposed to gwnes i. But as always, I doubt it matters which you use :slight_smile:. I’m sure someone else has a better answer than me though (i.e. an actual answer)

Can’t help with number 2 though, other than what I’ve mentioned above - it rolls off the tounge that much easier, as that leading w often gets swallowed up anyway.

On a side note, i believe Fe is the more southern version on Mi.


1 - yes, it is a hidden mi (or a hidden fe in the south). Both of these cause the soft mutation and both of these are very commonly left out in speech but the mutation remains.

2 - I’m not sure of the context (I don’t know the whole sentence), but ‘a’ doesn’t necessarily mean ‘and’ so if it’s not an ‘and’, it wouldn’t turn to ‘ac’ anyway. It could be a ‘that’ (e.g. y ffilm a weles neithiwr = the film that I saw last night)


In the unmutated word the W wouldn’t be vowel. In fact, following the G and preceding a vowel it’s behaving the same as W in English.

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Interesting thread. I’m just thinking doesn’t W behave as a vowel even in English? Or have I turned Welsh :grinning:. Ive always said it as a quick uu or oo. Perhaps not in the South?

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…yes and an ‘a’ meaning ‘that‘ would cause a mutation wouldn’t it…I can’t dredge a sentence like that from my memory banks - however that means absolutely nothing! :smile:

( …what’s my name again? )


Both pronounciations are correct - it’s just a regional dialect thing.


I thought that fe meant he/him in the South.
While i and mi seemed related to I/me.
I’m a bit confused now!

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yes, fe does mean ‘he’ in the South, but this is a different ‘fe’, and the ‘mi’ is a different one to the I/mi one!

The fe and mi that come before a verb and cause a soft mutation and usually disappear in speech are words that have absolutely no translation into English. They are just markers of a positive statement.


It would be no fun if there was only one of everything!..

To be fair I’m not sure if I can remember a Mi or Fe being used in SSIW at the start of a sentence…it’s been used a couple of times in the advanced Sgwrs I think.

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As a Southern learner, I have never used Mi or Fe at the start of a sentence, and I doubt if I could manage to do so. When I come across it in writing an internal voice says to me “Ignore it! It doesn’t mean me!” Maybe one day I will get round to thinking “Ah yes, a useful marker of a positive statement.”


I think I’ve heard school kids and possibly slightly traditional speakers using Mi weles or similar past tense verbs in speech. Possibly just on the radio, but I’m not sure. I think I remember @garethrking mentioning on here that it could be influenced by school lessons.

These affirmative markers Mi and Fe are very common, even routine, in the areas where they’re used. But they’re not used in all areas.

And I suspect the language-teaching establishment these days try to at least ignore, if not discourage, simply because they’re optional and so they think ‘Let’s not bother the learners with it. Our watchword is simplification.’ A dreadful attitude.


Interesting that the lady in this weeks Advanced Sgwrs used Mi extensively. It is clearly alive and well and an integral part of her Welsh. She is currently living in Caernarfon although not sure of where she is from originally.

Rich :slight_smile:

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I have yet to hear anyone say Fe, I think, though that is hardly based on a statistically significant sample at this point!

Although it is easier to miss than Mi, perhaps…

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Yes…that is probably true…

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