Wanted or Better

Welsh
#1

I’m struggling a bit with the SOUTHERN Welsh for the following expressions: These are my ‘attempts’. I’d appreciate some guidance/corrections

WELL I FI - “I’d better”
WELL I TI - “You’d better”
WELL IDDI HI - “she’d better”
WELL IDDO FE - “he’d better”
WELL IDDI HEN FENWY - “the old woman had better”
WELL IDDO HEN DYN - “the old man had better”
WELL I NHW - “They had better”
WELL I NI - “we had better”

OEDD FI’N MOYN - “I wanted”
OEDD TI’N MOYN - “You wanted”
OEDD HI’N MOYN - “She wanted”
OEDD FE’N MOYN - “He wanted”
OEDD NI’N MOYN - “We wanted”
OEDD NHW’N MOYN - “They wanted”
OEDD YR DYN’N MOYN - “The man wanted”
OEDD YR MENWY’N - “The woman wanted”

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#2

WELL I FI - “I’d better” - yes, spot on :slight_smile:
WELL I TI - “You’d better” - yes, spot on :slight_smile:
WELL IDDI HI - “she’d better” - yes, spot on :slight_smile:
WELL IDDO FE - “he’d better” - yes, spot on :slight_smile:
WELL IDDI HEN FENWY - “the old woman had better” - ok, with this one, because “the old woman” is not a pronoun, you don’t have to conjugate the ‘i’ - Well i’r hen fenyw
WELL IDDO HEN DYN - “the old man had better” - as above, no conjugation - Well i’r hen ddyn
WELL I NHW - “They had better” - the conjugation for the pronoun ‘they’ is iddyn - Well iddyn nhw
WELL I NI - “we had better” - yes, spot on :slight_smile:

OEDD FI’N MOYN - “I wanted” - oedd needs to conjugate here - oeddwn i’n moyn
OEDD TI’N MOYN - “You wanted” - oedd needs to conjugate here - oeddet ti’n moyn
OEDD HI’N MOYN - “She wanted” - yes, spot on :slight_smile:
OEDD FE’N MOYN - “He wanted” - yes, spot on :slight_smile:
OEDD NI’N MOYN - “We wanted” - oedd needs to conjugate here - oedden ni’n moyn
OEDD NHW’N MOYN - “They wanted” - oedd needs to conjugate here - oedden nhw’n moyn
OEDD YR DYN’N MOYN - “The man wanted” - almost spot on! Yn only changes to 'n after a vowel, so oedd yr dyn yn moyn
OEDD YR MENWY’N - “The woman wanted” - almost spot on! Y only becomes YR before a vowel, and a feminine noun will mutate after ‘the’, so oedd y fenyw’n moyn

Just one other little thing - woman is menyw/fenyw (you’re getting the Y and W the wrong way round - but don’t worry, Ys and Ws take a bit of getting used to! :wink: )

All in all, though, excellent attempts, well done :slight_smile:

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#3

Diolch yn fawr siaron. You really are a big help. I hope you don’t mind me ‘bombarding’ you with these questions.

#4

Not at all - bombard away! :joy:
It’s what SSiW and the forum is all about - help, support, and paying-it-forward! :smiley:

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#5

Hi siaron. I need just a bit more clarification please. I don’t really understand conjugation and I guess it’s not essential that I do understand it. I have just got to learn to use it.

Are the following correct:

WELL I FI - I’d better

WELL I TI - You’d better

WELL IDDI HI - She’d better

WELL IDDO FE - He’d better

WELL I’R HEN DDYN – The old man had better

WELL I’R HEN FENYW – The old woman had better

WELL I NI – We had better

WELL IDDYN NHW – They had better

OEDDWN I’N MOYN – I wanted

OEDDET TI’N MOYN – You wanted

OEDD FE’N MOYN - He wanted

OEDD HI’N MOYN - She wanted

OEDDEN NI’N MOYN – We wanted

OEDDEN NHW’N MOYN – They wanted

OEDD YR DYN YN MOYN – The man wanted

OEDD YR HEN DYN YN MOYN – The old man wanted

OEDD Y FENYW’N MOYN – The woman wanted

OEDD Y HEN FENYW’N MOYN – The old woman wanted

Do you think the boys around the Carmarthenshire villages will understand these forms??

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HAD BETTER etc
#6

Yup, all those are correct except just two tiny things (but one is really picky, so don’t worry, you’ll pick it up in time, and the other may be a typo 'cos you got it right before!):
OEDD YR HEN DYN YN MOYN – The old man wanted
HEN always makes the following noun mutate, so HEN DDYN
but as I said, that’s being really picky at this stage!
and
OEDD Y HEN FENYW’N MOYN – The old woman wanted
should be YR hen fenyw (you got it right with yr hen ddyn, so I’m putting that down to a typo! and besides, in speech it wouldn’t make that much difference, especially if, like me, R-rolling is not always forthcoming!)

and yes, I’m sure the boys around Carmarthenshire will understand them :slight_smile:

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#7

Diolch siaron. You are a big help! You’re a star

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#8

Hiya, I thought it was o’n i’n moyn, o’n ni’n moyn, o’n nhw’n moyn for I wanted, we wanted, they wanted - are they just abbreviations for what you’ve written?

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#9

Yes, o’n is short for oeddwn and oedden (and o’t is short for oeddet!). These abbreviated forms are really colloquial and often used in speech and very informal writing but the full forms are the ‘proper’ ones :slight_smile:

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#10

siaron - in the SSiW learning challenges (that I have played so far) Aran has used O’N I’N MOYN for “I wanted”. I understand that these abbreviation are often used in speech and are not the ‘proper’ forms but for someone like myself, who’s principal goal is to be able to hold conversations in ‘southern’ Welsh, is it not better for me to keep learning with the abbreviated forms?

Having posed that question, I do now note that in Level 1 Challenges 12 and 12 the expressions ROEDD HI’N MOYN or OEDD HI’N MOYN for “she wanted” and OEDD E’N MOYN for “he wanted” have been introduced.

I will follow your advice as to which is the best way forward for a learner such as myself

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#11

It’s one of those things where if you only learn one form or the other (i.e. just the abbreviated form or just the full form), the one you haven’t learnt might throw you off when you hear someone else using it. Yes, many people use the abbreviated form in speech, but even first language speakers who do will recognise the full forms. When I first started learning, I was not told of the abbreviated forms at all (this was 20+ years ago very much pre-SSiW!), so they have been something I’ve picked up just through hearing and speaking Welsh day-to-day. And actually, I still use a mix of full and abbreviated forms. Basically, whatever gets from brain to tongue first is fine!

Oedd e and oedd hi are in full form because these don’t really abbreviate, although you will, in some areas, hear oedd (oyth) pronounced more like odd (oth).

The best way forward - as with anything when there is more than one option - is to go with whatever feels natural for you (perhaps this will end up as the version you hear most people around you using) but to be aware of the alternatives for when they crop up. :slight_smile:

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#12

Dilch siaron. I think I’ll go on learning whatever Aran and Cat broadcast in their challenges. As I gain some confidence to engage in conversations I’m sure I’ll pick up quite a few colloquialisms that I may well adopt. Meanwhile onwards and hopefully upwards with Aran and Cat.

I have noticed a difference between the way some things are said in Welsh than English. For example the expression " he wanted to tell me something interesting" in Welsh might translate literally as “he wanted something interesting to tell me” Am I right?

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#13

Well, of course things are said differently in Welsh than in English, they are different languages after all. The biggest structural difference is that a normal (i.e. unfocused) sentence in Welsh begins with a verb. But your two examples convey different meanings in English (I want to say something =|= I want something to say) which can just as well be distinguished in Welsh:

  1. He wanted to tell me something interesting - Oedd e’n moyn dweud rhywbeth diddorol wrtha i
  2. He wanted something interesting to tell me - Oedd e’n moyn rhywbeth diddorol i’w ddweud wrtha i

The structural differences here are that “to tell someone something” in Welsh is akin to “to say something to someone”

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#14

Maen ddrwg Dafi! I didn’t choose my examples carefully. My two examples do convey different meanings. Diolch

#15

Diolch yn fawr, that’s just what I needed, thank you very much.

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#16

Diolch for this! I have just hit a brick wall with lessons 12 and 13. This explains the oedd very clearly.

But can I ask: why does the adjective position vary? Why is it hen venyw but menyw ifanc?

#17

I’m afraid I don’t have a definitive answer - it may be that it’s an older tradition that has partially changed but that’s just a guess.
Whilst most adjectives follow the noun, there are some (the most common are hen, ambell, pob, prif and holl) which always precede it, and there are a few that can come before or after depending on what they mean (the only really common one of these is unig which means ‘only’ if it precedes the noun and means ‘lonely’ if it follows the noun)

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