Is that why (do you think), Gwynedd is such a strongly Welsh-speaking area (so I believe), or is it the other way around - it’s a strongly Welsh speaking area and therefore the Cyngor reflects that?
Or a bit of both?
Hwyl,
Mike
As in the quote provided by stu above (the ever helpful and workaholic stu, I should say!)
“In some cases, Welsh language skills may be an essential
requirement for appointment; in others, the worker may need to agree to
learn the language to the required level within a reasonable period of time
after appointment.”
This pretty much States in black and white that there are jobs where you can say that someone should not be considered becauses they have not already learned Welsh.
As an extreme example, you could not apply for a job as a Welsh translator and say “I can not speak Welsh, but if you give me the job, I am willing to learn Welsh if you pay me and wait until I acquire the skills necessary to perform the job” without being shown the door to the broom cupboard very quickly.*
Similar with many other essential skills which a job requires,
Where the line is then drawn on whether someone should be appointed before learning a skill or with a promise to learn a skill depends on many factors.
This is very, very true, and a very, very good point.
I’m with Adam Price on this, who believed that a non-Welsh speaker should not have been appointed as Chief Executive of Camarthenshire Council, with a promise to learn Welsh not being enough. In my view he has been proved right on this opinion.
Therefore there are other jobs in other areas where such decisions should be taken - and it is important -in my view- therefore to stress that they are not automatically against equality legislation.
[*All candidates for a job interview exit the room by accidentally entering the broom cupboard. Anecdotal evidence shows this to be a scientific fact.]
[Just to add after editing cut-off that my statement of what Adam Price believes or believed should have been better phrased. Relying on newspaper reports, so I have no idea what he believes/believed! Irrelevant to the main point though.]
Hasn’t a similar thing happened with Aberystwyth University vice-chancellor April McMahon?
And just to make it clear, as this conversation is in danger of going on too long, and getting too sprawling, that
- As stated in my first post, I hadn’t read the job description and was just going by the word “essential”, and that
- There are jobs that it is reasonable to require you to speak Welsh before being appointed (as there are jobs which require you to speak English before being appointed)
Whether this job is one of those, I had and have no idea- but the idea that the principle of appointing a Welsh speaker rather than someone willing to learn Welsh is in itself necessarily and rightly a breach of equality legislation was what I was taking issue with (whether that was an idea expressed or not!)
And that “essential” to my mind implied that it was a job that did, but I did not know - (hence my saying I had not read the job description.)
So probably discussion rather skewed, as often happens!
[edited to make this message understandable!]
Ooh, hadn’t heard of her.
Apparently salary and pension contributions total over a quarter of a million pounds!
Ouch!
Well, appointed in 2011 with a pledge to learn Welsh, wonder how her Welsh is getting on after three years. Hope it is coming on well, for that salary!
Sorry, I guess I was thinking in terms of general appointments (such as the one being advertised by Cartrefi Cymunedol Gwynedd) - clearly, if there’s no room for disagreement on ‘essential’, such as for a translation post or perhaps (as was the opinion at the top of the CRE a while back) health care for infants or the elderly, then it would stand. But as a part of a rôle such as senior management, it wouldn’t stand up against a legal challenge.
Adam Price may well have been right that the Sir Gâr appointment would end in tears, but it’s easier to fix that kind of situation by having proper assessments and measurable actions in place - start at 80% full salary and increase by 5% at 6 monthly intervals depending on performance in 6 monthly assessments of the learning process? - than it would be to take on potentially costly and complicated equality legislation battles.
We offered to help April McMahon, and were told that the university had the resources it needed for her to become a Welsh speaker. I’ve not heard anything to indicate one way or another whether or not she now speaks Welsh.
aran – We offered to help April McMahon, and were told that the university had the resources it needed for her to become a Welsh speaker. I’ve not heard anything to indicate one way or another whether or not she now speaks Welsh.
I conversed with her in Welsh – definitely beyond simple pleasantries – last Spring when we had a reception for her here in DC. She is clearly continuing to learn. I think she had just taken one of the exams – Canolradd, maybe?
According to this, https://www.aber.ac.uk/en/news/archive/2013/08/title-139209-en.html , she passed Sylfaen last year, so a rather ‘traditional’ rate of progress.
I think that whether the above statements are facts or not, and whether they represent the best attitude to take, is something that myself (and others) will continue to disagree with yourself (and others) (as shown by attitudes of intelligent, knowledgeable people on both sides towards the appointment of McMahon and James), so I think we’ve mined this one out!
Ain’t civilised disagreements of opinion on emotional matters great! 
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Well, that’s encouraging, thanks for sharing. While I agree with Rob’s perception of the rate of progress, it’s hard to blame people for accepting widespread ideas of what constitutes a ‘normal’ rate of acquisition. I wonder if she’s taken advantage of the opportunity to attend Wlpan Awst.
I hope very much that we can start to produce evidence that shorter term acquisition is possible for professionals who are supported in the workplace - it’s one of the things I’d love to make some progress on in the course of 2015… 
I was on the August intensive course at Aberystwyth in 2011, when April McMahon started as Vice-Chancellor and on her first day she did a welcome speech in Welsh. She did, of course, have notes. All the tutors were very impressed (I was in the beginners group at that point, so had no idea about what she was saying and could not judge). I think they said she had had daily Welsh lessons with one of the tutors over Skype for about four months (the time from when she was offered the job to when she took up the post). I’ve heard lots of criticism over what she’s done since being at the University, but not related to her level of Welsh.
Yeah, I’ve heard some negative stuff too, but it’s good to hear that her efforts with the language seem sincere.
Ditto I’m afraid.
Update.
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I only just noticed this thread! Does anyone else remember the announcement of the last result declared in the referendum that gave us the Senedd? I had never heard anything like it. The accent was dreadful and every number was said so slowly, it seemed clear he had never even seen Cymraeg before, much less tried to read it out!!! I had hoped things had improved!!! from Jackie
p.s. I just noticed this:
I’m with Adam Price on this, who believed that a non-Welsh speaker should not have been appointed as Chief Executive of Camarthenshire Council, with a promise to learn Welsh not being enough. In my view he has been proved right on this opinion.
Was this the same guy I heard back then??