Tiny questions with quick answers - continuing thread

It is true, I think, that you may sometimes hear ‘hoffi’ in the north. I’m not sure of ‘licio’ in the south, but people move and, no doubt take their dialect with them! Generally, I think. ‘hoffi’ is south, but TV takes all words everywhere and “Dw i hoffi coffi!” is something I would not cease to say! It is fun and people from gogledd Cymru may agree!
If you are living in the north, listen to @aran’s Challenges and he’s pretty faithful to northern usage! I am currently going through all of them at roughly one a day as a challenge to me and to help with understanding S4C!
Croeso to the Forum! Lots of us like helping each other. Q on the top line is the search tool, FAQ is useful and you can always start a new topic! To ask, say Aran, start with @ and when you have typed enough to see his name pop up, select it like @aran. You’ll see it looks a little different and it acts as a flag telling him some one wants to contact him!
Lwc dda!

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Diolch yn fawr. Really appreciate the help :slight_smile:

Diolch :slight_smile:

Another tiny hint, you van reply to more than one post at once. as long as they are in the same thread! Either, quote from one, reply and then, on a new line, without posting your reply, go and find the next quote and quote it. It will pop into your posting below the previous one. Now I’ll find a post from someone who will not mind being used as an example!

Sorry, @aran, just taking your name in vain!

@Caerefail if you want to ask someone something or reply without a quote, you can just head the line with their Forum name as I have just done with yours!

‘O’n i’n medru’ = ‘I could’, so is it also ‘O’n i’n gallu’?

My literal take on this is: I was able to. So I’m thinking of this as ‘I could have’

So is ‘o’n i’n medru’ only about the past, or is it also used for present/future, because the could sense is continuous. As in ‘I could go tomorrow’ as ‘O’n i’n medru mynd yfory’ ?

I’m in South Wales but insist on saying “Dwi’n licio cacen”, just to annoy my wife. :smiley:

The word “could” is tricky in English, because it means not only “I was able to” (“I went to the concert last night but I couldn’t see anything because there was a big guy standing right in front of me” = I was not able to see anything) but also “I would be able to” (“I could learn Welsh a lot fast if only I would speak it more often” = I would be able to learn…).

I would expect o’n i’n medru to be only the “I was able to” meaning.

“I was able to go tomorrow” is not what “I could go tomorrow” means – that is “I would be able to go tomorrow” and so I think you would need something conditional in Welsh, I think.

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My experience over a long period of time in Mid and North Wales was that the essential difference between leicio and hoffi was that the native speakers all used leicio in all situations, while learners used hoffi (the one that was always promoted in classes and courses as being ‘more Welsh’!). So I used to tell my students to use leicio if they wanted to pass for native speakers! Similarly, incidentally, with - for example - stesion v. gorsaf…the latter a made-up (or at least repurposed) word promoted by the language police (nobody in the village where I lived knew what it meant!).

Now of course, hoffi has been around a long time, but then so has leicio…a very old loanword from English. So I suppose you pays your money and you takes your choice! :slight_smile:

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Oh dear! Never again will I hoffi unrhywbeth! I refuse to cooperate with the language police! Dear @garethrking, if you have written a book on the activities of such people, what is it called? If you have not written it, please do!

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I imagine this sort of thing contributes to the feeling many native speakers have that they are ashamed for the way they speak because it’s “not proper Welsh”.

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Yes, I think so…I certainly sensed that regularly.

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I wonder if there is anything that can be done to teach learners real, ‘as it is spoken’ Welsh? OK @aran and @Iestyn are doing what they can, but the southern version of SSiW teaches ‘hoffi’ and I had never heard stesion only gorsaf!

[quote=“Y_Ddraig_Las, post:2142, topic:3153, full:true”]‘O’n i’n medru’ = ‘I could’, so is it also ‘O’n i’n gallu’?

My literal take on this is: I was able to. So I’m thinking of this as ‘I could have’

So is ‘o’n i’n medru’ only about the past, or is it also used for present/future, because the could sense is continuous. As in ‘I could go tomorrow’ as ‘O’n i’n medru mynd yfory’ ?[/quote]
I believe @philipnewton is correct that what you’re trying to construct is “conditional.” You’d be better off thinking of O’n i’n medru and O’n i’n gallu as “I was able to” rather than “I could” because “could” (and would and should) in English are such slippery words which have very different constructions in Welsh. And (as he said) your phrase O’n i’n medru mynd yfory would translate as “I was able to go tomorrow” - which doesn’t make much sense (unless you are talking about having planned to go (somewhere) tomorrow but your plans have been ruined).

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I think this well intentioned clip from the Cambrian News 1889 is amusing - these were learned men trying to improve the teaching of Welsh, but the references to savages and mongrel Welsh is quite funny.

"As practical men, we ought to face the possibility of the more or less remote extinction of the Welsh language. But we know, as a fact, that, whatever may be the fate of the Welsh language, a large number of Welsh children are in the pitiable condition of the schoolman’s ass. (Laughter.) They stand just half way between good English and good Welsh, and are in danger of dying of intellectual hunger between the two. (Hear, hear.) The moral ruin of such men is still more complete.

Missionaries tell us that one of their first tasks is to give savage tribes a language. They have to transform signs of mere passing sensations into expressions for permanent abstract ideas. It appears to me to be a real danger to the intellectual and moral life of the Welsh people, this transition from Welsh to English. Whatever may be said about Welsh, it is simple fact that Welsh is a literary lan- guage ………. To permit the people of Wales to lose their knowledge of literary Welsh, the language of the Welsh Bible, so that they will understand no other Welsh than the mongrel patois of the streets, is to abandon deliberately the creative influences of the past, to break for ever with the enobling examples of our great men, to throw away the heritage of many centuries, in order to start afresh forsooth from the low intellectual and moral condition of savage tribes. (Cheers.)"

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Says it all, doesn’t it? :confused:

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Who was responsible for the Blue Books? I want to get a time machine, go back and wring their necks!

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Does ‘Enw da’ mean both ‘good reputation’ and ‘good name’ in context…

So for example … I saw the name for Greylag geese as “Gwydd wyllt”…which I thought was a ‘good name’ (an apt name)…considering they are quite angry geese to passersby in certain seasons!
But would you say ‘enw da’ for “thats a good name for them!”…without saying they have a good reputation :smiley:

Yes - context is what decides, as in almost all cases of supposed ‘ambiguity’.
And in fact we even have exactly this example in English, don’t we?

Pierre Bezukhov? That’s a good name!
vs.
I wouldn’t want to damage Pierre Bezukohov’s good name.

:slight_smile:

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You’d struggle to, after the bear incident!

Yes, afraid so - as Philip and Sionned have said, you’d use either future or conditional to talk about yfory… :slight_smile:

You’ll hear both, but ‘licio’ far more often… :slight_smile:

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I had a peek at the course guides for Course 1 and Level 1 Northern, and I see that licio is what is taught in those lessons. In the southern Course, we learn hoffi. Curious if that is because @Iestyn naturally uses hoffi? I don’t want to sound like a learner, I want to sound like Iestyn :slight_smile:

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