Tiny questions with quick answers - continuing thread

Does anyone have any advice for pronouncing the “e” correctly (well, for a southern Swansea/Neath-y sort of accent)? I really struggle to hear much difference between the sound in Welsh and in English, no matter how much I try to (ie, ble/where I pronounce the same except the bl/wh).

Needless to say, this has led to me being rigorously mocked by Welsh speakers I know/occasions where people have struggled to understand what I was trying to say, so if anyone can give any advice there, that’d be great, cheers :slight_smile:

@Iestyn can you or Cat help? I’d say it’s a sharper sound, certainly than the end of English where, when one’s mouth is sort of wide and thin. In fact the ‘where’ sound is more like the way folk from the capital say ‘Card’ in Cardiff or ‘Caer’ in Caerdydd, but I’m no expert! @leiafee any ideas?

I think you might be suffering from the occasional wind-up merchant here - unless you say ‘where’ in a really odd way, there just isn’t all that much difference. The ‘not understanding’ moments are probably a range of factors, rather than just how you say ‘e’.

If you’re saying ‘ble’ somewhere in the ‘ble(d)’ to ‘Blair’ range, you’ll be fine…:slight_smile:

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It’s possible I just say “where” in a really weird way then, haha! All the people (3+) who’ve picked up on it are almost entirely unrelated to eachother other than growing up in the Neath/Swansea area, so unless I’m pronouncing “where” weirdly, possibly they pronounce that sound slightly differently? (My irl name is pronounced differently than most Welsh speakers would due to them pronounced “eu” differently in Neath to most of Wales, for example).

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Stick some samples (of ‘where’ and ‘ble’!) on Soundcloud and we’ll take a listen… :slight_smile:

I don’t think I even pronounce it consistently across words.

The ‘e’ on the end of Abertawe I sound like “e” in “yes”

But my “ble” rhymes with “blair”

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In which, I take it, you don’t pronounce the “r”? I’ve always found that rather odd in British pronunciation, but only noticed it when people started trying to write pronunciations on the forum - writing “ar” for what I would write “ah” . . .

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Yes, Sionned, I think you are right about the non-rhotic “r” in English in some (but not all) parts of England and Wales. However we do pronounce the “R” if it precedes a vowel. So the followers of Tony “Bleh” were “Blerrites”.

And sometimes we pronounce an “R” preceding a vowel in a following word even if there was no “R” there in the first place!

“lore” sounds exactly like “law” to me (i.e. no R)… and “lore and myth” may turn into “loranmyth” (with R), but “law and order” may turn into “loranorder” as well…

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Especially in Liverpool, (Lerpwl in Welsh?), but I’m “gerrin” off the subject now.

Anyway, back to the Neath/Swansea “e”. @Yaiyan, Is there any chance that your friends are expecting a Glamorgan/Gwent “ay” sound. I’m sure I’ve heard the laid back versions “Blay”, “Abertaway”, “Pontadahway” etc. Also there are a couple of Lanelay villages, further east. As mentioned, I’m sure that @Iestyn will keep us right on this one.

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@Yaiyan - my sister, when she started teaching in Londond was constantly questioned about the meaning of words with the long e / ai sound (like airport or care), because her Welsh accent included a sound that was totally foreign to the kids she was speaking, and they constantly mistook it for an “ey”. If she said hair, they thought she was saying hay.

I suspect that is what leads to the “Abertaway” etc amongst second language speakers - trying to make a dipthong of the more pure Welsh e.

I’m going to be a bit un-useful and say - don;t worry about it for now, however furstrating it might seem. The reason I say that is that if you can;t hear the difference, then any attempt at producing the different sound is likely to lead to an incorrect but different sound. As you get more used to hearing and using Welsh, you may start to develop an ear for the subtle differences. and that is when you need to start trying to pronounce the differrent sound.

I wonder about people saying they can’t understand you if your e is the English sound of where / wear / rare rather than the Welsh sound. I now a lot of Welsh speakers - mostly second language or Welsh-school-produced - who pronounce the English e sound, and on it’s own, it doesn’t make a person difficult to understand. I’m wondering whether this is a south Wales valleys thing, in that people who speak Welsh in South Wales tend to only speak amongst themselves, which means that they tend not to be familiar with other accents / dialects. There are often confidence issues as well - Until recently, Welsh was very much frowned upon, even when I was growing up in the 80s. If a person is unfamiliar with some of the words you are using, you have an unfamiliar accent, and they have been told since forever that their Welsh isn’t very goodm it may just be that they just lack the confidence to make the effort to understand unfamiliar sounds.

If this is the case, then you need to do two things - one is to keep doing what youare doing, and building your range of Welsh and you confidence in using it. Once you are more confident in yourself, you will be happier to take the occasional put-down / misunderstanding for what it is - the product of ignorance (as in a lack of knowledge rather than out and out rudeness), or the joshing of someone who is a bit out of their depth themselves.

The second things is, to get into more situations where you can speak Welsh, and find the situations that do build your confidence and comfort with your new language. You’ve put a lot of work in to get where you are, and there are a lot of people out there who will really appreciate that effort and really want to help you. Find them, and you’ll be laughing!

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I’ve certainly met 'Pontardaway"! - more so than ‘Abertaway’! One thing I noted on Gower was the local pronounciation of ‘maen’. Penmaen was called penmane (English thing on a horse’s neck!). There were lots of Gower ways of saying Welsh place names, due, I’d guess to centuries of being Norman governed and English speaking!

Ah, now - that’s a different reason entirely (and one that I love!)

The “correct” (dialect) pronunciation of Pen Maen is Pen Mên - the Pen Mân of more western Welsh getting the ê treatment that is typical of South East Wales and parts of Powys.

But the Wenglish accent makes an ê out of ai, as in Mên Rôd (Main Road) or “Shut the gêt or the sheep will escêp”, and so when a person without a Welsh accent hears “Pen Mên”, they ‘translate’ it back into their own accent and say it as “Pen Main”.

Where I used to live in Caerfilli, there was a field called “New Place”. It took it’s name from the coal level that used to be there, New Place level, but on old maps, it is clearly marked as Plâs Newydd - the new mansion! The â of Plâs has become ê under the local accent and then been re-rendered as ai by people who didn;t have a Welsh accent.

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I have to be careful what I say, as I have relatives living near Cross Pen Mane (Croespenmaen) :smile:

Right, that’s really useful thanks - I suspect you’re right about the “ey” pronunciation, that seems to fit in fairly well with the descriptions I was picking up on how to change the vowel! I’ll try to just carry on practising for now as you said, and I’m sure it’ll come closer with time anyway :slight_smile:

(The bashing was only good natured anyway, and the person who struggled to understand, whilst fluent, hasn’t really spoken Welsh regularly for some decades)

Many thanks for the advice, the discussions been interesting to read too :slight_smile:

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Excellent. Your willingness / enthusiasm for speaking will be what leads you through to comfort and confidence, so don;t stop that, no matter what!

The ironic part is, the more you use your Welsh, the more you will come across little seemingly negative incidents like this, but that the negaticve incidents are actually a symptom of your growth and improvement. If you are good enough to be out there using your Welsh, you have already done extraordinarily well, and you will only get better.

So, big :star: for getting this far, and an even bigger :star: for pushing on through to even better!

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Working at the A465 Bargoed junction at the moment, a quick search reminded me of @Toffidil’s comment, above. I assume that the Welsh name predates the English, although I appreciate that the name Bargoed has been around for a long time. I wonder if Bargoed could be a hyper-translation, or just happened that way as it rhymes with the near-by Argoed.

Ah, sorry. I hope I haven’t caused confusion. As it happens, my NE English “main” has a long “ê” sound, very similar to the Wenglish, although I don’t realise it as I am speaking. This is different to the Southern English “Mayn”.

I realise that Jonathan Ross, Ant & Dec aren’t everyone’s cup of tea, but I hope that Dec’s pronunciation of “way” is closer to what we are looking for, rather than Jonathan’s “engaged” - it should be around 4:50 in this clip -
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Jonathan+Ross+Ant+and+dec&&view=detail&mid=39ED3841DE251F46B43F39ED3841DE251F46B43F&FORM=VRDGAR

Helo, just started getting down to learning Welsh seriously (after 5 years of putting it off :slight_smile:). I’m using SSi and Duolingo mainly but I have a quick question. So far, I’ve come across two versions of ‘to like’ - licio and hoffi. Which is the most appropriate for North Wales or is there yet another version? Thanks

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We have heard both in use in North Wales, along with other examples such as ymddwyn/bihafio, llefrith/llaeth and trio/ceisio. People in some areas seem to prefer one or the other but understand both. It all adds interest!

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