I’ve described the situation in post 17, 19 and some more in 23.
With all due respect to all of you not anyone to be insulted but it now looks like I’d want to “compete” with you here in language knowledge, what I didn’t want and surely is not my intention. What I wanted is to prove things with German NATIVE SPEAKER before we make any conclusion here. I wouldn’t dare to do this with Cymraeg though but since I have some clues about German too since I speak it I thought going to native speaker for some answers would be just propriate.
However, I see I should pull myself out from ANY language grammar discussion and if it even would be about Slovene, which NATIVE SPEAKER I am.
That’s what I wanted the outcome would be anyway …
Tatjana, I feel that you’re the one who is offended right now. I don’t think anyone wants to question your German knowledge or Brigitte’s. But, I did English at university (I was planning to graduate in Romano-Germanic philology, but then when I was in my third year I changed university and graduated in history of cultures, so my linguistic knowledge is rather dubious, really). And in English (at least in the Russian school which studies English), phrasal verbs are regarded separately in grammar, as a very distinctive phenomenon which is characteristic of English only.
This is why I was feeling so surprised when I found them in Welsh, and why I started questioning your assumption that German has them too. But there are so many things in linguistics that people don’t agree on, and sometimes quite ardently disagree! There’s really no need to feel like you must keep out of any conversations on grammar topics:(
I’d just like to say @tatjana, that I, personally, found your contributions to this thread interesting and instructive. I’ve always found descriptions of how native users use language to be more interesting than descriptions of how grammarians (second language or not!) arbitrarily divide things up and name them! It’s the usage, not the arbitrary divisions which is important, and you were interested in that, and helped other people with your interest and contributions! To me, that is 100% what this thread was about. Thank you.
[Just to make clear that this isn’t to do down other people’s interests in such matters- or indeed an interest in grammar. I think that such an interest can be very useful. Just that I think the important thing is an interest in grammar of a particular, individual language, rather than the terms used and sometimes arbitrary divisions, often across many languages, ifyouseewhatImean. However, as always, different things help different people!]
Hello Stella, I’m Brigitte, a native German speaker and I didn’t contribute to this thread because
a: my English is not good enough to talk about all this grammar things and
b: as a native speaker I just use the language in the “right” way" (or what feels right for me), but I don’t want people to argue about Geman language, and I don’t want to be blamed for people arguing.
Tatjana asked me about this on our Skype-chat and I said, that this term “phrasal verbs” is not used, when you describe German grammar. But as much as I know about English grammar (not too much, because I did my exam in 1975), “phrasal verb” means, you combine a verb with a preposition or particle and this combination has a meaning, that can be related or very different from the original verb, but the meaning is unpredictibal, you can’t conclude it from the meaning of verb and preposition.
If you try to use this description and search in German language for similar constructions, you’ll find first of all compound verbs, but we agreed, that compound verbs don’t count as “phasal verbs” though you could see them as those, when you use them not in the infinitiv.
Example:
aufstehen (get up)
Ich stehe jeden Tag um 6 Uhr auf (I get up every day at 6 o’clock). This looks a bit like a “phrasal verb” but it is not, because the infinitiv tells us clearly that it is a compound verb.
auf etwas stehen (to stand on (the top of) something
Ich stehe auf dem Dach ( I stand on top of the roof) This is clearly not a “phrasal verb” because you can use “stehen” together with many prepositions like unter (under) zwischen (between), there is no other meaning than only “stand” and the specification, where.
auf etwas stehen ( to go for, to prefer, to like much)
Ich stehe auf Rockmusik.Er steht auf blonde Frauen
This way of using “stehen” and “auf” fulfills IMO the description of “phrasal verbs”, but as pointed out before, in German grammar we don’t use this term.
Therefore I said to Tatjana, that we have “phrasal verbs”, although we don’t call them so.
I agree completely, I’d like to see this thread ended (at least when German grammar is concerned).
So do I and if I’d know at the beginning what would occur here I wouldn’t even respond to it at all.
I’m sorry. Appologies to all but my intention was not what it seams now to be. Appologies to you, @brigitte too for dragging you into this.
I promise I’ll never ever discuss grammar again (and this is not said out of me being offended but with feeling of guilt though). I wanted to go in friendly constructive discussion but obviously ended way differently then that.
Thank you, Brigitte, this is all very interesting and something I wasn’t aware of before (also because my knowledge of German is little or non-existent).
As to the rest.
I honestly don’t understand what has been said and done here to provoke so much bitterness and all these implications that are completely obscure to me. I asked a theoretical question because I’m interested in theoretical and historical linguistics, not because I wanted to insult native speakers, Tatjana or anyone else. Why it lead to a really strange personal discussion which made Tatjana want to stop posting and apologize to Brigitte for “dragging her into this” (into what, sorry? it was an absolutely innocent discussion, as I see it, and thic choice of words implies there was something bad going on here), Owain apologize to Tatjana and Brigitte ask to see this thread ended, I don’t understand. The most unpleasant thing is that it was my thread and my words were quoted so I’m really in a rather awkward position.
I’m used to discussing theoretical matters without ever mentioning personalities. I’m also used to discussions where disagreeing or questioning something doesn’t mean you are personally against someone. I obviously don’t know the rules of etiquette here, thanks for pointing it out to me. Normally, when I want to find an answer, I look it up in a grammar book, I think that’s what I should continue doing, lest I offend or insult, even implicitly, anyone else.
@stella this is NOT YOUR FAULT and if thread is yours it doesn’t mean you did anything wrong even if your words were quoted.
In grammar matters only, that’s all. I’m still here for other things if you want me …
And, the guilt is mine so I’m out of here. The topic isnt’ supposed to stop in any way it’s just that we obviously are not too keen to German language from my point of view, and maybe we shouldn’t discuss it for that matter.
I won’t spread any word further, I’d just like to clear out that it’s nothing your fault and you’re more then welcome to ask anything (even if you don’t feel like this right now). If I’m upset with anything, yes, this should be my problem and I shouldn’t react this way … So, appologies one more time.
I didn’t apologise to Tatjana, I just wanted her to know that I myself enjoyed her contributions and found them useful, as she obviously felt, rightly or wrongly, that some felt otherwise. for what it’s worth, which is little , I myself didn’t get the impression she put you in that category!
Ooh dear, sounds like a bit of a pickle! I really hope it wasn’t me that managed to offend anybody. If anything sounded negative, it was meant as a completely light-hearted comment - but I guess it’s notoriously hard to pitch the tone right on a web forum all the time, so sorry if I did.
(I’m qualified enough to pontificate on German, as my German is unfortunately still an order of magnitude better than my Welsh!)
But, would we, please, stop wondering/arguing/discussing about who’s insulted who. It’s all my fault and I’ve appologized, that’s all what matters + the topic is about phrasal verbs and you can spread spirits of this further on. I’ll avoid any grammar discussion as I’ve promissed not to cause any further problems or even someone going off the forum as it seams I once did cause that already.
@Isata and I got stuck twice on the (English) phrasal verb ‘fall’ today while skypeing - ‘fall behind’ and ‘fall into the habit of’. I skimmed back through this thread to look for resources on Welsh phrasal verbs, and found ‘Pa Arddodiad’ recommended. But I couldn’t look at page examples, and reviews of this book are mixed. Some reviewers suggest that it lists a verb, followed by a number of possible prepositions, without making it clear which is appropriate in which context. I could really do with a book that gives example sentences, so you know exactly what kind of falling you’re doing.
I don’t want to fall out with anyone or make their hair fall out, but I think these may not be translated the same way in Welsh?
We do have to be careful not to fall into the trap of translating word for word. That could cause us to fall flat on our face. Sorry that was completely useless but I couldn’t resist!
(You can cwympo mas gyda rhywun)
@BronwenLewis - I generally check the Geiriadur Academi online* (geiriaduracademi.org), as it often has really useful selection of phrases when it comes to phrasal verbs - the entry for ‘fall’, for instance, gives excellent examples of where word-for-word translations aren’t the norm.
*online because the actual book is a bit too hefty to carry around!
You’d probably ‘disgyn allan’ with someone (influence of English, no doubt) but you’d be more likely to ‘magu’r arfer o wneud’ something… [Same recommendation as Siaron!]…
for what it’s worth, which is little 
, I myself didn’t get the impression she put you in that category!
[Same recommendation as Siaron!]…