Old Course 3: Weloch chi vs Welsoch chi etc


I’m just working through the middle of Old Course 3 (northern) and we’re doing the regular inflected past tense, and the plural forms of gweld and clywed always have an interpolated -s- between the verb stem and ending.

So clywsoch chi not clywoch chi, welson ni not welon ni etc. Both forms have their own entries in gweiadur.com, so I understand that we’re talking about common alternative forms, but I wondered whether there was a regional preference here, or perhaps a difference in register?

Secondly, does this apply only to a few specific verbs, or can you use it more generally: e.g. talson ni rather than talon ni?

Many thanks!

It’s more a difference between literary/formal Welsh and colloquial Welsh.

I don’t have my grammar books with me to fully check the rules (and I don’t want to guess in case I’ve mis-remembered), but - and I hope this doesn’t cause more confusion than it clears, because you won’t hear literary/formal in speech very often, if at all - here are examples of the different conjugations of talu that I’ve found online. As you can see, talson is not an accepted form, so no, it’s not the same case for all verbs.

Colloquial forms:

First Person - talais i ; talon ni
Second Person - talaist ti/chdi ; taloch chi
Third Person - talodd e/o/hi ; talon nhw
First Person - talaf i ; talwn ni
Second Person - teli ti/chdi ; talwch chi
Third Person - talith e/o/hi ; talan nhw
First Person - talwn i ; talen ni
Second Person - talet ti/chdi ; talech chi
Third Person - talai e/o/hi ; talen nhw

Literary/formal forms:

First Person - telais i ;talasom ni
Second Person - telaist ti ; talasoch chi
Third Person - talodd e/o/hi ; talasant nhw
Impersonal - talwyd
First Person - talaf i ; talwn ni
Second Person - teli ti ; telwch chi
Third Person - tâl e/o/hi ; talant nhw
Impersonal - telir
First Person - talwn i ; talem ni
Second Person - talit ti ; talech chi
Third Person - talai e/o/hi ; talent nhw
Impersonal - telid
First Person - talaswn i ; talasem ni
Second Person - talasit ti ;talasech chi
Third Person - talasai e/o/hi ; talasent nhw
Impersonal - talasid
First Person - talwyf i ; talom ni
Second Person - telych ti ; taloch chi
Third Person - talo e/o/hi ; talont nhw
Impersonal - taler

Thanks, Sharon!

I’m still a bit confused, not because of what you wrote, which makes perfect sense of course, but because the Old Course doesn’t seem to be using the literary form of gweld or clywed. For example, they use

  • weles i
  • welest ti
  • welodd o / hi
  • welson ni (not welsom)
  • welsoch chi
  • welson nhw (not welsant)

That’s why I wondered whether the -s- form was a regional northern variation.

Thanks again.

1 Like

You get with certain verbs only - like clywed and gweld as you pointed out - and only with the plural endings of the preterite - so you can say welson nhw, but not *welsodd e. And dylwn i can do it all the way down: dylswn i, dylset ti, dylsai fe etc.


Thanks, @garethrking!

So this is just regional informal variation, without any particular shift in register/nuance?

Correct! :slight_smile:

1 Like