Native Welsh speaker using Dwi'n eisiau

[AnthonyCusack]

Names are odd historically…Rhodri Fawr and Rhodri Mawr exist. Dafydd Gam (instead of Cam). A bit like how it’s “O, Mam bach” not fach. I think sometimes it’s just what works…(of course, there probably is a more correct answer than that )

[mikeellwood]

but I’m sorry to have to give up on Gwen y gath - I was getting quite attached to it, what with the alliteration ‘n’ all

I could get used to it as well, and not just in poetic language, but everyday things…

“oer y cwrw,
blasus y bastai,
blonegog y tsips.
…
ah bwyd y duwiau!”

[cat-1]

I like an oddity. Just shows me how much more there is to know! Thank you

[garethrking]

why is Hedd Wyn not Hedd Gwyn?

Because adjectives used as epithets in names are (generally) mutated, regardless of the sex of the person referred to. Hywel Dda - Hywel the Good; Llywelyn Fawr - Llywelyn the Great; Olaf Dwp - Olaf the Stupid

[henddraig]

o, poor Olaf! I love the way we, so to speak, feminise our heroes! But Olaf shows it isn’t only those we admire who are so treated!

[garethrking]

I love the way we, so to speak, feminise our heroes!

Although I think one must be careful not to equate the Soft Mutation with female or femininity, of course - that’s just one small aspect of this wonderfully versatile and cheeky mutation!!

[cat-1]

Thank you @garethrking (and Olaf).

[mikeellwood]

this wonderfully versatile and cheeky mutation!!

I love that. It sounds like a good wine. And like a good wine, should be used wisely and not too well…or possibly the other way around.

[ElynnWinter]

but does not specify whether the parents here were themselves native speakers or learners. If they were the latter, but used Welsh as primary language to their offspring and wrongly used dw i’n eisiau with them, then yes…the next-generation native-speakers would indeed use the new formulation with no sense of strangeness

His parents did grow up in England, with one of them having a Welsh background, that might be a possible explanation. Although he did say his friends all use it too. Then again, it is easy to take over each other’s speech patterns.

although surely they would constantly hear dw i eisiau on the media at every turn, wouldn’t they?

Yes, but that doesn’t mean you’ll realise you are making a mistake yourself; my high school teachers had to point out that I was using horrendously sounding grammatical constructions from Low Saxon in my native language. I never noticed, even though no one else was doing it. You won’t hear it if you’re not looking for it.

[AnthonyCusack]

“Hearing it in the media” is interesting. So so so many English speakers write, in social media, “should of” because they’ve heard “should’ve”. So reception, as you day with your Low Saxon example, is not a universal given.

[garethrking]

so many English speakers write, in social media, “should of” because they’ve heard “should’ve”.

But of course that’s a different issue - writing the wrong word because in speech it sounds exactly like the right word. I can understand completely why that happens. But the case with Dw i eisiau vs ‘Dw i’n eisiau’ is different - two different constructions, one of which definitely sounds wrong to a large number of speakers.

The mystery here is not so much why the native speaker insisted that ‘Dw i’n eisiau’ is right (though that is indeed an odd enough assertion in my view), but that he ALSO insisted that the correct formulation Dw i eisiau is wrong!!

[henddraig]

Could the native speaker have picked up this bad habit somehow - maybe from parent who learned Welsh, maybe because parent didn’t correct child’ s mistake…just somehow. Then a learner says, “excuse me, but shouldn’t that be dw i’n eisiau?” Reaction might well be objection to being corrected by a 'jumped up incomer '! Wrong reaction, but maybe understandable? Like Blair ‘believing in Hussein’s weapons’ and basing foreign policy on his belief, not on fact! (stamp foot! I’m NOT wrong! I’m not!)

[louis]

Isn’t it the case that in Welsh a construct bod + noun predicate requires yn, e.g. dw i’n fragwr? So if eisiau is a noun, isn’t dw i’n eisiau more correct than dw i eisiau? How could dw i eisiau ever have become correct? At one stage or other, it must have sounded strange, as mae eisiau arnaf would have been the normal way of saying it.

[garethrking]

Could the native speaker have picked up this bad habit somehow - maybe from parent who learned Welsh, maybe because parent didn’t correct child’ s mistake…just somehow.

I just can’t quite believe that a true native speaker - and remember, perfectly understanding native Welsh everywhere and all around him - would ‘pick up’ something that sounds so wrong.

[aran]

So if eisiau is a noun, isn’t dw i’n eisiau more correct than dw i eisiau?

Mmmmm… type of noun important here? Dwi’n hapusrwydd…

[garethrking]

Isn’t it the case that in Welsh a construct bod + noun requires yn, e.g. dw i’n fragwr? So if eisiau is a noun, isn’t dw i’n eisiau more correct than dw i eisiau?

No, @louis - the construction bod + yn + noun relates to identification, and therefore to descriptive nouns: dw i’n fragwr, mae’n Gymro, etc etc. But eisiau is not a descriptive noun (though it is of course a noun). The other rule for bod + yn relates to verbnouns, but eisiau isn’t a verbnoun either.

Hence no reason either way for an yn, therefore dw i eisiau (and indeed dw i angen for the same reason) logically correct!

[garethrking]

type of noun important here?

Correct!

[aran]

Correct!

I. Did. Grammar.

[punches air in delight]

[garethrking]

We haven’t had this much excitement since @henddraig threatened to write to Golwg about orangwtan.

[henddraig]

Fame at last!