Level 2 challenges 9 and 10 - Lefel 2 heriau 9 a 10

Having done these two challenges, can anyone explain when to use i, wrth and iddi?
I sometimes hear that dweud takes wrth but then in other constructions with dweud, i is used. Presumably it depends on which verb is used and then the appropriate preposition? And where in the sentence it appears?
I know sometimes it’s just one of those things but I like to understand the grammar behind it.

Diolch ymlaen llaw!

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The verb dweud does two jobs depending on the i/wrth preposition.
Dweud i = to say to
e.g Wnaeth rhywun dweud i fi - someone said to me
Wnes i ddweud i ti - I said to you (singular/informal ‘you’)
Wnes i ddweud iddi hi - I said to her (iddi is the ‘her’ form of ‘i’)
Wnes i ddweud iddo fe/fo - I said to him (iddo is the ‘him’ form of ‘i’)
Wnes i ddweud i’r plant - I said to the children
Wnaeth rhywun ddweud i ni - someone said to us
Wnes i ddweud i chi - I said to you (plural/formal ‘you’)
Wnes i dweud iddyn nhw - I said to them (iddyn is the ‘them’ form of ‘i’)
Dweud wrth = to tell to
e.g. Wnaeth rhywun dweud wrtha i - someone told me (wrtha is the ‘me’ form of ‘wrth’)
Wnes i ddweud wrthat ti - I told you (wrthat is the 'you form of ‘wrth’) (singular/informal ‘you’)
Wnes i ddweud wrthi hi - I told her (iddi is the ‘her’ form of ‘i’)
Wnes i ddweud wrth y plant - I told the children
Wnes i ddweud wrtho fe/fo - I told him (iddo is the ‘him’ form of ‘i’)
Wnaeth rhywun ddweud wrthon ni - someone told us (wrthon is the ‘us’ form of ‘wrth’)
Wnes i ddweud wrthoch chi - I told you (wrthoch is the ‘you’ form of ‘wrth’) (plural/formal ‘you’)
Wnes i dweud wrthyn nhw - I told them (wrthyn is the ‘them’ form of ‘wrth’)

Lots of verbs take certain prepositions, and many (like dweud) change meaning slightly depending which preposition is used - but far too many to “list and learn”. It’s a case of getting used to the patterns as you come across them. :slight_smile:

I hope that’s clearer and that I haven’t over-complicated it with forms you may not have come across yet.


Mae’n defnyddiol go iawn - diolch!
That’s very useful - thank you!

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Now I’ve read this post I’ve been trying to remember and then looked for the difference between to tell to and to say to, but I couldn’t find it.
They all explain you use say when the receiver is not specified, which doesn’t seem the case here. :thinking:

The “wrth series” is the one that always comes to my mind at the moment (except when I just completely forget it during challenges! :grimacing:) and I guess everybody would understand me anyway.

But now I’m curious…is there any example for the “i series”?

I’m wondering this as well, Gisella. I wonder if it’s a north-south thing, because I’m wracking my brains trying to think of an example where I would say dweud i, and I’m pretty sure I always use wrth. The more I think, the more I seem to remember a discussion with Aran about ‘dweud i’ and ‘gofyn wrth’ vs ‘dweud wrth’ and ‘gofyn i’ (which I say) when I was preparing the lessons. Interesting isn’t it?!


Yes, exactly. When would you use ‘…gofyn wrthon ni’ or ‘…gofyn i ni’ (or dweud)?


In the southern course it’s always “dweud wrth”, but in the northern course Level 1 teaches “dweud i”, then Level 2 switches to “dweud wrth”. I’m not sure why, but it does cause a little confusion at times. Maybe Level 1 was before your discussion @Iestyn and Level 2 was afterwards :joy:

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I’m on this challenge and I’m starting to panic that so much is just not sticking. I’m doing lots of talking now but found out today that Welsh has feminine and masculine nouns, not just for people but inanimate objects too. Should I have worked that out for myself by now? I’ve gone all the way through determinedly not worrying about the grammar, but after I realised I didn’t know about the genders, I have to admit I’m still struggling to work out which are the perfect, pluperfect, imperfect tenses so I dont feel confident in when to use them. I don’t get the impression other SSiW learners have this difficulty. Am I supposed to have course notes that explain when a new concept has been introduced in a challenge? Or is there anything you’d recommend for those like me who have learned other languages with grammar and feel the need to understand the grammar in order for it to stick?

No, you shouldn’t have worked it out for yourself - the course’s style (as you know) - is to tell you the right way to say something - radical! :smile:

Your brain works on those patterns (even when you don’t realise it) and gradually assimilates the rules…it’s a very weird thing…but actually the same way a child (we all) worked out how to speak our first language.

It contrasts amazingly with the ‘cherry on the cake’ approach - involving an explanation first of the 17 things which need to be taken into consideration in order to make it right …before letting you say it. :upside_down_face:

It is so different from anything else I’ve learned this made me unbelievably uncomfortable!..but whadayaknow, it seems to work.

I had a comfort blanket which were the two books below…which I can recommend because they have a very short (eg two sides per chapter) explanation of each the features of the language. This is just perfect - Goldilocks would approve of them.

I’m not sure I needed this blanket - a lot of people say you don’t need it - but it made me feel a bit better from time to time - and we are all different after all :wink:

Rich :slight_smile:

Thank you Rich, it’s a coincidence you recommended these books because I’ve just ordered the blue one based on a friend’s recommendation.
I know at least some of SSIW is definitely sticking because I pointed out a typo to a first language speaker at work last week - he’d forgotten to mutate in his email. I felt amazed I noticed it!
But I think a comfort blanket will help quieten down those noisy doubters in my head :slight_smile:
Thank you :blush:

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Yes I started with the Blue one - I realised quite quickly that SSIW has no respect for the usual order of things - it just tells you the sort of things you need to say :smile: - so an order for the red one followed shortly afterwards!

( to be honest the Red Book just carries on, so there is no major boundary between them and they could have been one book)

…but see what you think!

Rich :slight_smile:

Good advice, I’ll get them both, I like visual stuff so it can only help!

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Joanne - you’re a star!

Absolutely no, you don’t need to know that there are feminine or masculine genders, nor what mutations each cause (because they do!). You are already a Welsh speaker (I know that!), and as you find out these things you’ll suddenly think ‘OK, so that’s why we say that…’, just like I did as I was growing up.

Diolch Rich for the book recommendations - comfort blankest are great as long as you understand that they are there for comfort rather than being essential. But if you never learn another grammar rule in your life, you’ll still be a great Welsh speaker, because our brains are programmed to pick up languages!

BTW - for anyone feeling that stuff isn’t sticking as you get further on in the course, you’re getting to the stage now where you have a lot of Welsh, and the stuff you use most will be the stuff you remember easiest. So, make sure you use the Welsh you need, and don’t worry if you forget stuff you don’t use - you’re not using it! But it will still be there if you do need to use it in the future. One little reminder (especially an embarrassing one!) may be all it needs to stick!


@joanne-taylor just to add a quick plug for the Q&A sessions in Slack … if you’re doing one of the structured courses you’re welcome to pop in with any questions :slight_smile:


What an amazing contribution, so very helpful to me at the stage that I am at.

The only example that is missing is for I said to a child, where the i would cause the soft mutation, I think, so followed by blentyn, not plentyn.

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spot on! :slight_smile:

Thank you Iestyn! I feel like I got a gold star from teacher! :blush:
The advice and patience you and @Deborah-SSi and Nia give us learners is incredible. SSIW is so completely not like a faceless business

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@Deborah-SSi Thank you for the reminder about the Q&A sessions :blush:. I’ll start coming to them now. I’m on the 6 month course but am showing as a 5 minuter here. Don’t know why but I guess it’s not important xx

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The pink badge is because you must have posted that you had created sentences within 5 minutes. That’s the award you get for that. When you move on and get asked to record your sentences and post them in The '5 Minutes' Test - recordings that’s when you’re badge will turn to red :slight_smile:

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Also here’s a plug for the vocab lists for each Challenge - using an iPad if possible. You can do a search of any words you have forgotten the meaning of. All instances of that word’s occurrence (and challenge number(s) will come up. I love looking over vocab from lessons I have already done - seeing it written down helps it stick.
I am putting in an entry to the SSiW eisteddfod (writing a postcard) so shall be checking those vocab lists to ensure I get at least some of the pellings right… https://forum.saysomethingin.com/c/welsh/online-eisteddfod-2019