Than reading/writing only?
I think it’s one hundred per cent certain that’s true without doing any races! 
I can’t see how you could achieve fluency in reading without achieving fluency in Welsh- and to do that you need to be able to speak it with people.
I don’t think it’s a certainty at all. There are plenty of people who learn to read/write languages without becoming speakers - consider Latin! - and I could imagine that people might develop their own approaches/tactics specifically for reading/writing that might work very well…
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There is no one alive today as fluent reading and writing Latin as somebody who spoke Latin (and was also literate! 
) when it was a living language. That would be impossible- so much of the subtlety of the meanings have been lost!
I specified fluent. You could not become as fluent without speaking it, therefore the process would be necessarily slower. Infinitely so!
But anyway, Justin and Eirwen’s question seemed to be asking whether it was a disadvantage to start reading at the same time as speaking.
[but, as always, thank you for your input on the matter!]
One of the least specific words I know! How could you possibly measure, for example, the overall fluency of someone who understands everything they read in Latin as compared to an illiterate ancient Roman?
If you say that fluency has to include speaking, then yes, of course a reading/writing only approach won’t give you that - but that’s not what I understood Justin to mean, and it’s not a definition of fluency that I’d be comfortable with.
No measurement needed. Just that someone would understand the subtleties of the language more through speaking it with someone else. Therefore they would understand the subtleties more when reading it.
And that’s not what I understood JustinandEirwen to mean. As I say, the question seemed to concern starting to read at the same time as speaking being a disadvantage.
I certainly don’t recognise your précis as what I said.
.[again though, always good to hear your opinion and get your input!]
[oh, I seem to have edited the above post to stick in (and was literate) at the time you were writing your answer. I would have thought that was obvious though.]
That’s not self-evident to me.
The original question was ‘IF my goal was solely to read what would be my fastest and most efficient way of reaching that goal.’ In that context, I don’t think it is 100% certain that speaking would necessarily be part of that mix (although as I said originally, I think there’s a fighting chance that it would be - based on the importance of production to memory formation, rather than the process of talking to other people)… 
I understood the question.
Just to say my opinion again, speaking with people increases the understanding of subtleties of the language, combining words with expression of face and body, with reactions to yourself, in a way reading never can.
This understanding carries through to reading and writing.
Justin and Eirwen was asking if starting to read at the same time as speaking was a disadvantage to learning to read. (The most important point )
As I say, to say all that again.
You may well disagree with it.
You may well not particularly want my input.
But the above is what I said, not your précis.
[once agin, Thank you for your input.]
Why would you think that?
What précis are you referring to?
“If you say that fluency has to include speaking”.
But most of the points you made seemed to be addressing points I hadn’t made.
As to whether you want my input or not, I have no idea whether you do or not and did not say you did not.
I don’t know about Swansea, but I noticed that one could join the Cardiff libraries if one had a valid library card for any other library in Wales or England. One needs to present this in person, but having done that, one could “borrow” ebooks, (and perhaps audiobooks) by downloading them online. (I have never actually got around to trying this out for myself, so far).
Are the audiobooks you are talking about downloadable @owainlurch or are they on CD which you have to physically borrow?
Unfortunately, in the past, I think audiobooks have been seen as a thing for the blind, and a bit of a niche market, and it was not realised that they could have a wider appeal. The fact that “Audible” exists testifies to the fact that there is a demand for them, but in general, Audible is appealing to people who want to listen in their own language, and that market has been made possible by modern mobile devices which have the capacity for many such books, and which can make long journeys, etc, more pleasant. I suspect that even the Audible people haven’t quite realised that they also have an appeal to language learners (who are another kind of niche market).
Even the well known linguist Alexander Arguelles said (in a presentation at one of the polyglot conferences) that at one time he had “looked down on” audiobooks, and only more recently had become convinced of their usefulness to language-learners.
I think it’s in this one:
Edit: he starts talking about audiobooks at about 37 minutes in.
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There is a wide selection on CDs on the shelves. I don’t know whether there are any available for download.
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Just checked their audiobook download site and there don’t seem to be any In Welsh. It’s the first time I’ve used the site and search function, though.
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That’s not a précis! It’s an attempt at a conversation - if you say/if one says.
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Fair enough! French was never a strong point of mine …
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I think this discussion is very worthwhile. In most fields of endeavour efficiencies of 30% bring about radical changes in the delivery of services. My interest is one as an economist (albeit minor one) and as a consumer of language education.
My hypothesis is that the SSi method (listen a bit then speak) is so efficient that it ought to shake up the industry. I would suggest that the efficiencies, if measured over a sizeable group, would turn out to be significantly greater than 30%. I think this would be the case whether the objective is speaking or reading or writing or a combination of the three.
It would be worthwhile for someone to do an independent study because if proven true then there is amassive mis-allocation of resources in the language-learning sphere.
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Whoops - did I just state the obvious,
Justin
Come to think of it, books can be ordered from one library to another. I wonder how far would that carry, as it were? I’m sure a librarian on this site answered that question, but I’ve forgotten the answer.
Presumably audio CDs could be sent to another library in the same way? I don’t know.
Ah, here we are-
"Almost all 22 library services in Wales pool resources into one joint ebooks site. It needs much more improvement and a wider range which I’m pushing for but is worth checking out. Its worth also remembering that reservations are free in welsh libraries as long as the book you want can be sourced in wales which is usually the case. So just ask your local library for the book you want and within days youll have it, for free 
Of course, with ebooks, geographical boundaries are irrelevant so once you have joined you could access the ebooks site from anywhere"
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My hypothesis is that reading may be a disadvantage if the goal is efficiency - meaning making the least effort at becoming competent as a speaker, reader or writer. The hypothesis goes like this - listen and speak iterations are the most rapid way of creating a foundation for later acceleration as a proficient speaker or for a transition to reading and writing.
I also do think that in the early stages reading may interfere a little with the beauty of the listen and speak iterations - which I hypothesize might be best without any interference from other types of learning. Also, I hypothesize that reading should not be at the expense of time spent on listen and speak iterations. But this doesn’t have to be the be-all and end-all of the hypothesis. Let’s all read if we enjoy doing it - which most of us do. And if there is some disadvantage in doing it it may be outweighed by the motivational aspects of doing something we enjoy.
My own very simplistic model for this theory is let the listen and speak iterations mature with a foundation of more than 500 or so words delivered in patterns. After that I would agree that reading would help in building vocabulary certainlybeyond 1000 words and given the current state is probably indispensable for acquiring a rich vocabulary.
However, once SSI delivers dialogues with patterns and vocabulary toward the 2000 word range and beyond that toward the 4000 word range then the game changes again - and I would hypothesize that the listen and speak iterations will be a powerfully efficient way of learning a language - to a relatively sophisticated level. So GOGOGO SSi4k
Just to end by saying that reading is one of the greatest pleasures in life - so for pleasure, for culture and for some role in the mix, certainly more and more once the foundations are built I remain a big fan.
Justin
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I disagree with this. As I say, I haven’t noticed the fact that in Wales* people necessarily start reading along with or before speaking as interfering with any form of learning Welsh, including SSiW. In fact, it seems- from what I have seen- to be an advantage in familiarity with the language.
My views are only based on the people from Wales and outside Wales I have seen achieve various levels of fluency, so it’s by no means a scientific analysis - so I think we are always going to disagree on this one- (which is a good thing! )
*- edit- people in Wales who have decided to learn Welsh as a second language later in life, that is!
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