We’ve always worked very hard to make sure that even issues which trigger strong emotions get discussed in a calm and friendly manner in here, and I think it’s gone well so far - I hope it will continue to do so, but we’re going to need everyone to keep making the effort to be calm and friendly… 
8 Likes
Well after thinking about it I’m happy to be associated with so called angry radicalised welsh people.
Without them we would probably have;
English only telly
A secretary of state for Wales with all powers at Westminster
No right for public services to be in Welsh
Diminishing numbers of Welsh language schools
No Welsh language act
No commitment to increase the numbers of Welsh speakers.
I am not saying these are perfect but go back to the 1970s when I grew up and the language really was in crisis.
Just my views obviously and not possibly influenced by videos on youtube or books I have come across recently. 
There is so much to do to convince people about the language but it involves something different. The decline looks like it has slowed or stopped, but now there is a need for something different for growth.
Hopefully the consultation process currently underway will embrace that opportunity that exists for a new perception of the language. One which respects it and doesn’t treat it as an awkward problem which if ignored will go away.
3 Likes
I think to get under the skin of some of these things you also have to consider what happened in Wales after the second world war. Many people were poor, very poor, living hand to mouth. The post war period made many people want things to change and to be better. The outlook after the war seemed more optimistic and it was time to ditch the past and build a new modern future, full of new Tower blocks, fridges, washing machines and all the rest. Parents who had gone through the war years wanted the best for their kids and the best jobs went to those who not only spoke very good English, but spoke very good RP English.
Most of these parents were not university educated and as always they wanted the best for their kids. The politicians and the media convinced them that losing Welsh was the only way to do this. The seed was planted elsewhere, but the damage was done by Welsh people ourselves - somehow it created it’s own sort of peer pressure. I don’t think it occurred to most people that you could have both and do both very well and the language was seen as something that would hold people back. That view persists and it has been passed down and in some communities even now, to suggest otherwise is to blow a huge hole in a way of thinking, that basically says - your parents and grandparents were wrong or daft.
Admitting that would take a lot of naval gazing and everyone loves their grandparents and parents; to suggest they were wrong is a big deal. It is far easier now to say we have left that in the past, but obviously the tide has turned a bit and many of us are saying no and can we get it back please.
The Welsh settlers in Patagonia seemed to be able to.
I have a book by probably their most famous writer, Eluned Morgan Jones, in which there is not a single word of English or Spanish.
It makes me very sad that you have written this. I have seen some really excellent documentaries and documentary series on S4C, which have treated the subjects with intelligence and compassion, and which haven’t been prone to the ‘padding’ that I so often see on English-language docs. Also, they often address aspects of Welsh life that simply don’t get an airing anywhere else.
I will admit a bias - as some of you know my partner is freelance in the TV industry here so has worked on some of these ‘not really good’ dramas and docs - and yes, budgets are an issue. But when I compare the low-budget stuff coming out of Wales with the low-budget stuff on ITV or Channel 5 (even BBC, sometimes) the Welsh programmes are miles better.
10 Likes
Yes very true. I think @pete would make quite a good activist (given his background in education and passion).
It’s nice to try a change opinions but argue with idiots is very difficult. Also the more shop keepers/workers are confronted with Welsh first and overbearing politeness when they speak English, maybe they’ll change? Kill with kindness. That’s the approach I’d like to take. I don’t always. I also get angry and walk out at times. I try and stay calm and improve the situation if I can.
Passion. I like that word.
Reminds me of a boyhood hero…Ray Gravel.
1 Like
I love S4C’s shows. Y Gwyll, Parch. Y Byd ar bedwar. There are lots of good political discussions. I prefer Heno to the One Show. Radio Crymru has plenty of Radio 4 esque discussion shows. While Radio Cymru Mwy rivals the BBC for entertainment.
I disagree that Welsh media is not good enough. Under funded, but exceptional for that funding level.
4 Likes
I suppose I should probably have worded that better; I’m sorry. For the budget, I’m sure some of it is truly excellent. Imagine how much better those documentaries could be with the kind of budget and exposure that Panorama gets though. Meanwhile, Y Gwyll (arguably the best drama to come out of Welsh television), needed loads of outside funding, and still only has enough money for 6-8 episodes per series.
You’re right - but they’re simply not going to get that sort of money. And the more people say ‘Well there’s nothing good to watch on S4C’ the worse the viewing figures get and the harder it becomes to justify its existence in the first place.
It might be because I’ve just finished reading Aran’s book (!), but I strongly feel the urge to point out how so many people are doing what they do for S4C out of love - for the country and the language. The reason we live in Cardiff is that Angharad was passionate about working in Welsh - she could be earning an awful lot more money working on drama or features in Manchester or London, but we made the conscious decision to come here because of the language. It’s the same for many of her colleagues that I meet.
But still there’s that undercurrent of ‘Oh, it’s [parochial] Welsh TV so they’ve got the job because they’re not really good enough to get work in English’. One of my old school friends who had been at the drama college here in Cardiff in the 1980s said ‘Some of my contemporaries learned Welsh and they’ve never been out of work since’. The undertext here is: they’re not really that good, but they’re good enough for Welsh TV as the bar isn’t that high. It’s the old trope of English being a more valuable language than Welsh.
I know that’s not what you meant, hectorgrey - this isn’t directed at you. But there’s a lot more going on under the surface than just the fact that S4C hasn’t got a lot of money to play with.
4 Likes
That may be so, but I like the stuff on S4C I like because it is good. I know a few people who work/worked for S4C/Welsh media etc, and the reason I like(d) any of their work is because it is good, not because of their love for it (if that was ever evident!)
Not having a go, trying to support here- I think S4C should be supported because it is at least as good as the rubbish that the BBC churns out, better considering the situation it is working in, rather than supporting it because it is a labour of love, if you see what I mean. And I think that is a good thing for such media.
1 Like
Oh, some of it is truly excellent. There’s just not enough variety of high quality stuff, primarily because one channel has a small budget and needs to try and cater to everybody who speaks Welsh. How can one TV station cater to literally everybody who speaks Welsh, when their language is in some cases literally the only thing they have in common? I mean, to be honest, I barely watch television at all nowadays anyway; I watch catch up for stuff that looks interesting, or Netflix. I’m not familiar with Parch, but I’m guessing Y Byd ar Bedwar is a news/politics show? I would probably actually find that vaguely interesting.
Likewise the radio station; Radio Cymru is, so far as I can tell, trying to be a mix of Radio 1, 2 and 4, meaning that naturally one can only listen at certain times of the day if one wants to listen to a certain kind of content.
In both cases, if the kind of thing that the channel is playing at any given time does not appeal to you, then you don’t get to watch television/listen to the radio in Welsh at that time. Now, back in the 60s, when we had BBC 1 and that was it, that would have been fair enough. The thing here is that if you want to watch TV in English, there are loads of options, from old gameshows (which can at least be entertaining), old detective series, a live feed of parliament, 24 hour news, films, documentaries and so much more, many of them on channels dedicated to only that kind of television - and that’s just on Freeview. This is what S4C has to compete with for viewing figures. Likewise with Radio Cymru; it has to compete with all of BBC radio for listeners. In both cases, the unique selling point of being in Welsh just isn’t enough for a lot of people.
So when I say there isn’t enough good Welsh media, I’m not commenting on a lack of quality but the lack of quantity - and this is a major problem for the language. It, combined with the fact that many Welsh speakers are uncomfortable beginning their conversations in Welsh unless they know the other person speaks that language, means that Welsh doesn’t look like a part of public life. It’s easy to forget that there are half a million people who speak Welsh in Wales when you almost never encounter it; it’s easy at that point to think that the language is dead.
That sounds like a perfectly reasonable condition, from the point of view of those of us very sympathetic to the language in the first place. But I can see it playing badly in the hearts and minds department of those who have yet to be won over, and even more so in those who are actively “anti”.
I don’t know what the solution is though.
Nonetheless, I am going to have to ask you to join us in making sure that is NOT the nature of this forum, in the same way that I’ve asked @dave_5 to help…
You mention Grav - who was a very kind supporter of a couple of different things I’ve been involved with. One of his greatest strengths was that whatever he was doing, whatever he was supporting, he did it with a smile, and with obvious, genuine friendliness.
3 Likes
Ouch! I didn’t even think of the NHS! I suppose I thought it was obeying the Act and ‘available in both languages’ but I should have realised it will take for ever to get enough staff of all levels who can speak Cymraeg!
re-Willingness to learn, I totally know what @owainlurch means, but it’s better than nothing! Oh dear, must go now and I have lots still to read!
Back tomorrow - Yn ol yfory
Wyt ti di gweld Grav gan Gareth Bale (actor dim y pel-droedwr)? Mae’n sioe theatr arbennig!
1 Like
I have just found out that I can have a welsh-speaking midwife. However hubby speaks v little so not sure that will work out!
I went to a psych appt and happened to be wearing my wee orange badge. Very impressed when the consultant said welsh was fine. Unfortunately my welsh didn’t stretch to an hour of psych stuff. Maybe in another year…
4 Likes
I don’t watch very much S4C at all (although more than English TV) but I’m almost invariably impressed by the quality, especially considering the budget. I think it’s a shame it’s a expectation these days to have wall to wall programming of anything you want to watch whenever you want it. (A huge proportion of the English channels seem to be mostly rubbish anyway.) With on-demand TV, you can decide when you want to watch anything, so theoretically you can decide on your own schedule if you know what you want.
3 Likes
No, missed that, unfortunately…
I agree, @margaretnock. Case in point, when my mum came home to Gwynedd with my dad from Canada, she was given a teaching job on the condition that she attempt to learn Welsh. Not only did she faithfully attend adult night classes to fulfill her obligation, but she also got special permission for me to attend with her (I was only 10 years old at the time). That was more than 40 years ago, and we’re BOTH still loving every chance we get to practice yr hen iaith. We’ll be Skyping in half an hour, and we’ll start it off in Welsh before my dad and husband join in in English. That “a willingness to learn Welsh is essential” clause in her employment contract could not have been better for the language in our family.
6 Likes