Irish (grammar commentary, test-drive)

[elizaveta]

White belt. Tell me if it makes anything more digestible.

Tá mé ag iarraidh (I want)

Tá — “to be” verb, present tense. This variant of “to be” is used when we want to say something about something (but not in A=B patterns where we want to classify something as something).

Ag — preposition “at”

Iarraidh — verbal noun. With preposition ag it literally translates as “at wanting”, which is equivalent to present continuous in English. Forms of the verb “iarr” can also refer to asking, demanding, attempts to do something or requirements.

Mé — me, naturally. So, “I am at wanting” or “I want something [now]” (also, I’m asking, or I’m demanding, or I’m trying, or I require, depending on context).

Vowels with fada (á, é) are long vowels, they have deeper sound.

Labhairt (to speak)

Another verbal noun (literally translated as “speaking”). Irish does not have a true infinitive form of the verb!

Bh is pronounced as w.

T here doesn’t sound the way it sounds in Tá. That’s because one is slender T, the other is broad T. Slender consonants are those that are surrounded by slender vowels (i and e). Broad consonants are consonants surrounded by broad vowels (a, o, u). In modern Irish orthography a consonant should always be surrounded by vowels of the same type, it can’t have slender vowel on the left and broad on the right. Broad/slender is a very important distinction for Irish phonetics.

In various dialects words can sound differently, you can check pronunciation variants at https://www.teanglann.ie/en/fuaim/. Try how labhairt sounds in Ulster, Connacht and Munster Irish.

Tá mé ag iarraidh labhairt (I want to speak)

Depending on the context, might as well mean that I’m trying to speak. Literally that would translate as “I am at wanting/attempting speaking”.

Tá mé and táim are both correct forms of “I am”.

Gaeilge (Irish)

Literally translates as Gaelic, but Scottish Gaelic already uses this designation, so usually Gaeilge is translated as Irish, and that’s how kids in Irish schools are usually taught to translate it. Older people might still translate it as Gaelic. Every Gaelic language calls itself Gaelic by default, in Irish it would be spelled as Gaeilge, in Scottish Gaelic as Gàdhlig, in Manx language as Gaelg. If you need to specify that you’re talking about Irish Gaelic as opposed to Scottish Gaelic, it’ll be called Gaeilge na hÉireann.

There’s unwritten vowel after l, so it’s written Gaeilge, but pronounced more like Gaeilige (which makes it much easier to pronounce).

Gaeilge a labhairt (to speak Irish)

With “a” verbal noun functions as infinitive. In this pattern object (Gaeilge) comes first, verbal form (a labhairt) comes second. With “ag” it works the other way around. So, táim/tá mé ag labhairt Gaeilge (I’m speaking Irish), but Gaeilge a labhairt (to speak Irish).

Tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt (I want to speak Irish)

Fun fact: compared to people who learned Irish at school, native speakers of Irish use twice as many complex constructions.

In constructions with labhairt we imply actually speaking language, not the ability to speak it or language proficiency.

Leat (with you)

Say hello to the first prepositional pronoun in this course. Prepositional pronouns are combinations of preposition and pronoun.

Leat is le (with) + tú (you).

Irish has a lot of prepositional pronouns. Kids at school learn them a lot like multiplication tables.

Labhairt leat (to speak with you)

Speaking with you, technically, because that’s a verbal noun.

Gaeilge a labhairt leat (to speak Irish with you)

Now that’s more like infinitive — it has “a” before verbal noun.

Tá mé ag iarraidh labhairt leat (I want to speak with you)

Literally, “I am at wanting/attempting speaking with you”.

Tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt leat (I want to speak Irish with you)

Literally, “I am at wanting Irish to speak with you”. Master Yoda vibes. Irish syntax has plenty of them.

Anois (now)

This is slender S, because it’s next to a slender vowel i. Slender S is pronounced as Sh.

Tá mé ag iarraidh labhairt leat anois (I want to speak with you now)

I am at wanting/attempting speaking with you now.

Tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt anois (I want to speak Irish now)

I am at wanting/attempting Irish to speak now.

Tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt leat anois (I want to speak Irish with you now)

I am at wanting/attempting Irish to speak with you now.

Gaeilge a labhairt leat anois (to speak Irish with you now)

That’s it. Again, we’ve only been talking about actually speaking Irish here, not language proficiency.

[elizaveta]

Yellow belt

Labhraím (I speak)

That’s present tense similar to present simple in English. Used for actions that happen right now or happen on regular basis. So, either I speak right now, or I speak fairly regularly. Here first person has its own forms (labhraím — I speak, labhraímid — we speak), everybody else will use analytic form — labhraíonn + pronoun.

Labhraím Gaeilge (I speak Irish)

This pattern is not the most natural way to express language proficiency in Irish, but it’s often used in this sense. This will imply actually using language though, not just knowing it well enough to speak it someday if it becomes necessary. So, either I speak Irish right now, or I want to say that I know Irish and use it regularly.

Labhraím Gaeilge leat (I speak Irish with you)

Again, either I’m speaking Irish with you right now, or it’s a regular thing.

Labhraím anois (I speak now)
Labhraím leat anois (I speak with you now)
Labhraím Gaeilge anois (I speak Irish now)
Labhraím Gaeilge leat anois (I speak Irish with you now)

No ambiguity here!

Anois, labhraím Gaeilge (now, I speak Irish)

Moving “anois” to the beginning creates emphasis on it.

Má (if)

Long a (á) here, as in Tá. This vowel is typically pronounced as aw. With má we can create a complex sentence: something happens, if something else happens.

Má labhraím Gaeilge (if I speak Irish)
Má labhraím anois (if I speak now)
Má labhraím leat anois (if I speak with you now)
Má labhraím Gaeilge leat (if I speak Irish with you)
Má labhraím Gaeilge anois (if I speak Irish now)
Má labhraím Gaeilge leat anois (if I speak Irish with you now)

Má tá mé ag iarraidh labhairt leat (if I want to speak with you)
Má tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt (if I want to speak Irish)
Má tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt anois (if I want to speak Irish now)
Má tá mé ag iarraidh labhairt leat anois (if I want to speak with you now)
Má tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt leat anois (if I want to speak Irish with you now)

Sentence after má has usual structure of simple sentence.

Labhraím Gaeilge má tá mé ag iarraidh (I speak Irish if I want)

Complex sentence! This could as well mean that if I exercise some effort, yes, I can speak Irish. Or that I typically use Irish if I need to ask for something.

[elizaveta]

Yellow-white

Ba mhaith liom (I would like)

Oops. Several missing links here. Let’s start from the beginning.

If we want to say something about something, we use tá. If we want to express our attitude to something, typically we’ll use copula “is”. “Is maith liom” is idiomatic expression commonly translated as “I like“. Literally it means that something is good (maith) with me (liom = le + mé, another prepositional pronoun). Now, if we put “is maith liom” into conditional mood, “I like” becomes “I would like” (or, literally, “it would be good with me”), which is “ba mhaith liom”.

Notice extra h in mhaith. That’s lenition — adding h to the first consonant of the word. Lenition is a prominent feature of Irish, it happens all the time for various reasons. At this point you don’t need to remember the rules of lenition, just get used to its presence.

Ba in conditional mood causes lenition. M is one of the consonants that can lenite (not all of them can — L doesn’t lenite, for example), with lenition it becomes mh and is pronounced as w.

Ba mhaith liom Gaeilge a labhairt (I would like to speak Irish)
Ba mhaith liom Gaeilge a labhairt anois (I would like to speak Irish now)
Ba mhaith liom Gaeilge a labhairt leat (I would like to speak Irish with you)
Ba mhaith liom Gaeilge a labhairt leat anois (I would like to speak Irish with you now)

With attitude constructions typically the object of attitude will come after prepositional pronoun.

Bheith (to be)

That’s verbal noun, so literally bheith is being. “To be” is irregular Irish verb which means its various forms might have little semblance to each other, but it’s the same verb nonetheless. Tá is “to be” in present, bheith is verbal noun of the same verb. Luckily, Irish has only eleven irregular verbs that you’ll need to get used to, and most of them are very common: say, see, hear, go etc.

Ba mhaith liom bheith leat anois (I’d like to be with you now)
Tá mé ag iarraidh bheith leat anois (I want to be with you now)

Time descriptor is typically last word in the sentence.

Má tá mé ag iarraidh bheith leat (if I want to be with you)

If I am at wanting/attempting being with you.

Tá mé ag iarraidh bheith ag labhairt leat (I want to be speaking with you)

I am at wanting/attempting being at speaking with you.

Ba mhaith liom bheith ag labhairt Gaeilge anois (I’d like to be speaking Irish now)

It would be good with me — being at speaking Irish now.

Má tá mé ag iarraidh bheith ag labhairt Gaeilge (if I want to be speaking Irish)

If I am at wanting/attempting being at speaking Irish.

Tá mé ag iarraidh bheith ag labhairt Gaeilge anois (I want to be speaking Irish now)

I am at wanting/attempting being at speaking Irish now.

Má tá mé ag iarraidh bheith ag labhairt Gaeilge leat anois (if I want to be speaking Irish with you now)

If I am at wanting/attempting being at speaking Irish with you now.

In ann (able)

Irish has different ways to say that you can do something. Specifically this one is typical for Connacht Irish (spoken in Connemara), in the North you’d hear “ábalta”, which grammatically works the same way as “in ann”. Both “ábalta” and “in ann” empathize that you have physical and/or mental capacity for something.

Tá mé in ann labhairt leat (I am able to speak with you)

I am capable [of] speaking with you.

Má tá mé in ann, labhraím Gaeilge (If I am able, I speak Irish)

If I don’t have a sore throat, if I’m not unconscious etc, nothing will stop me from speaking Irish! That’s the spirit.

Tá mé in ann Gaeilge a labhairt (I am able to speak Irish)
Tá mé in ann Gaeilge a labhairt leat (I am able to speak Irish with you)

Because, presumably, I don’t have sore throat etc and I have relevant language proficiency.

Ba mhaith liom (a) bheith in ann Gaeilge a labhairt (I’d like to be able to speak Irish)
Tá mé ag iarraidh bheith in ann Gaeilge a labhairt (I want to be able to speak Irish)
Tá mé ag iarraidh bheith in ann Gaeilge a labhairt leat (I want to be able to speak Irish with you)
Tá mé ag iarraidh bheith in ann Gaeilge a labhairt leat anois (I want to be able to speak Irish with you now)

May I have physical and mental capacity for speaking this beautiful language!

Ba mhaith liom (a) bheith in ann (I’d like to be able)
Ba mhaith liom (a) bheith in ann labhairt leat (I’d like to be able to speak with you)
Ba mhaith liom (a) bheith in ann Gaeilge a labhairt anois (I’d like to be able to speak Irish now)
Ba mhaith liom (a) bheith in ann Gaeilge a labhairt leat (I’d like to be able to speak Irish with you)

“A” between “ba mhaith liom” and “bheith” is optional, but it will typically occur in oral speech.

Labhraíonn tú (you speak)
Labhraíonn tú anois (you speak now)
Má labhraíonn tú Gaeilge anois (if you speak Irish now)
Má labhraíonn tú, labhraím (if you speak, I speak)

Yep, that’s analytic form mentioned earlier — verb + pronoun, notice how it’s different from first person form.

Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge (you speak Irish)
Má labhraíonn tú Gaeilge (if you speak Irish)
Má labhraíonn tú Gaeilge, labhraím Gaeilge leat (if you speak Irish, I speak Irish with you)

Either right now or regularly.

Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge in ann (you are able to speak Irish)

Well, this probably would be more accurately translated as “You speak Irish ably/skillfully” (a compliment).

Ba mhaith liom go labhraíonn tú Gaeilge liom (I’d like you to speak Irish with me)

Go here means “to”. Technically this sentence can exist in Irish, but it is awkward. It is better either to put the verb in conditional which we’ll see later, or use verbal noun: ba mhaith liom tú a labhairt Gaeilge liom.

Tá mé ag iarraidh go labhraíonn tú Gaeilge anois (I want you to speak Irish now)

Same, conditional mood would be preferable.

Go han-mhaith (very well)

Another structure that’s more complex than it looks. If we add an- (it’s hyphened), whatever adjective we add it to becomes “very”. Good becomes very good, hot becomes very hot etc. The spelling of adjective itself might change in the process though! If it begins with b, c, f, g, m, p, it will be lenited. Maith begins with m, so it’s lenited.

Now, if we want to evaluate something, we’ll typically use go + adjective which works as adverbial structure. Quality becomes mode of being. Good boy — quality, the boy is well — his current state.

Just “well” would be “go maith”, but we want “very well”. Now, if we use “go” like this with an adjective that starts with a vowel, we’ll need to add extra “h” in the beginning (it’s actually easier to pronounce it this way). An-mhaith starts with a vowel, so it becomes go han-mhaith. Phew! (No, you can’t just evaluate something as “very well” in Irish without evoking several grammar rules, it would be way too easy.)

Labhraíonn tú go han-mhaith anois (you speak very well now)
Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge go han-mhaith (you speak Irish very well)
Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge go han-mhaith anois (you speak Irish very well now)

Not the most natural way to compliment language proficiency is Irish, but it can be used in this sense.

Ba mhaith liom Gaeilge a labhairt go han-mhaith (I’d like to speak Irish very well)
Ba mhaith liom a bheith in ann Gaeilge a labhairt go han-mhaith (I’d like to be able to speak Irish very well)
Tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt go han-mhaith (I want to speak Irish very well)
Tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt go han-mhaith anois (I want to speak Irish very well now)

Normally you’d say you want to be fluent, hopefully we’ll get there later in the course.

---

There’s a mistake in word order in this belt — should be Ba mhaith liom bheith leat anois, not Ba mhaith liom bheith anois leat.

Ba mhaith liom go labhraíonn tú Gaeilge leat makes no sense with leat instead of liom, also it is grammatically awkward. Should probably be removed.

Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge leat (you speak Irish with yourself) is missing some emphasis on “self”, which wasn’t introduced yet, so maybe better remove this one too.

Gaeilge go han-mhaith doesn’t make any sense out of context.

Also, I have to insist that “Is maith liom” should come before “ba mhaith liom” in the curriculum, it is illogical to introduce conditional mood without introducing the structure that will be put in conditional. Similarly, it would be more logical to introduce go maith first and move to go han-mhaith later to avoid grammar overload.

And yes, absolutely no machine translations into Irish without careful proofreading is a good principle to adhere, saves a lot of trouble later.

[aran]

This is a very detailed and kind post, Liza, go raibh maith agat - I’m sure there are lots of people who will find this hugely helpful

[elizaveta]

I’m not sure it’ll be actually used, but my own grammar is getting huge upgrade from searching Irish language forums for relevant rules and recommended constructions. I knew I read before I speak, apparently I proofread before I speak too.
Caught a spelling mistake in Brehon law term recently. God knows how it works without either fluency or working knowledge of Brehon law.

[elizaveta]

Adding “tá Gaeilge agam” pattern early on this stage could help avoid awkward anglicized constructions referring to language proficiency and build “ba mhaith liom Gaeilge a bheith agam” (I would like Irish to be at me = I want to have Irish) of the few known blocks.
And while we are at attitude patterns anyway, Is féidir liom (it’s possible for me = I can) would branch naturally from Is maith liom, which would also give us conditional B’fhéidir (perhaps/maybe), while we are at conditionals anyway.
Is fearr liom (it’s preferable for me = I prefer) would give Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste ná Béarla clíste as a bonus

I’ll need to meditate on “Colloquial Irish” volumes about that, but I think it should be possible to tweak order of nodes to avoid “Google translate” effect altogether, if the tree is built around Irish own grammar.

[elizaveta]

Yellow-black

An labhraíonn tú (do you speak?)
An labhraíonn tú anois (do you speak now?)
An labhraíonn tú Gaeilge (do you speak Irish?)
An labhraíonn tú Gaeilge anois (do you speak Irish now?)

Questions about actually speaking. Questions about language proficiency would usually use different form.

An labhraíonn tú Gaeilge má tá mé ag iarraidh (do you speak Irish if I want?)
This one is grammatically weird. If that was in “will you speak Irish with me” sense, verb in present is awkward.

Má labhraíonn tú Gaeilge go han-mhaith, ba mhaith liom a bheith in ann Gaeilge a labhairt leat (if you speak Irish very well, I’d like to be able to speak Irish with you)
Would be shorter and more natural with “if your [share of] Irish is fluent”, this variant feels anglicized, but we’ll need a bit more grammar to make it more compact.

Agus (and)
Labhraíonn tú Gaeilge go han-mhaith agus labhraím Gaelge anois (You speak Irish very well and I speak Irish now)
Labhraím Gaeilge agus tá mé ag iarraidh labhairt leat anois (I speak Irish and I want to speak with you now)
Labhraím Gaelge anois agus tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt leat (I speak Irish now and I want to speak Irish with you)
Ba mhaith liom a bheith in ann Gaeilge a labhairt agus tá mé ag iarraidh labhairt leat anois (I’d like to be able to speak Irish and I want to speak with you now)
Agus tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt leat (and I want to speak Irish with you)
Tá mé ag iarraidh Gaeilge a labhairt leat anois agus ba mhaith liom a bheith in ann (I want to speak Irish with you now and I’d like to be able to)

In oral speech agus is often changed to less formal contracted form “is” (this is not the same “is” as in “is maith liom”!). Between adjectives and in set phrases like “anois is arís” (now and again) contracted form “is” would be used in writing too. Specifically using agus can work as emphasis.

Labhrófá (you would speak)
Labhrófá Gaeilge (you would speak Irish)
Labhrófá Gaeilge anois (you would speak Irish now)
Labhrófá Gaeilge liom anois (you would speak Irish with me now)
Labhrófá Gaeilge go han-mhaith (you would speak Irish very well)
An labhrófá Gaeilge go han-mhaith anois (would you speak Irish very well now?)
Labhrófá agus labhraím (you would speak and I speak)
Labhrófá Gaeilge agus tá mé ag iarraidh labhairt leat (you would speak Irish and I want to speak with you)
Agus tá mé ag iarraidh go labhrófá Gaeilge (and I want you to speak Irish)

Conditional 2 person singular for labhairt, terrific. That’s what we actually want for “I’d like you to speak Irish” — Ba mhaith liom go labhrófá Gaeilge! You can check other forms of this verb here: https://www.teanglann.ie/en/gram/labhair (good moment to get used to “grammar” feature on teanglann.ie).

Verbs in conditional are used whenever we’d use could, would or should in English (or imply as much). So, if we want someone to do something, as above, we’ll use conditional, not present. Or we can use future, but it hasn’t been introduced yet.

Ba mhaith liom go labhrófá Gaeilge (I’d like that you would speak Irish)

That’s convincing Irish and a bit of awkward English for a change!

Tá mé ag iarraidh go labhrófá (I want you to speak)
Tá mé ag iarraidh go labhrófá Gaeilge (I want you to speak Irish)
Tá mé ag iarraidh go labhrófá anois (I want you to speak now)
Tá mé ag iarraidh go labhrófá Gaeilge anois (I want you to speak Irish now)

Those are correct, “go labhraíonn tú” better be forgotten.

Liom (with me)
Labhairt liom (to speak with me)
Agus labhrófá liom (and you would speak with me)
Labhrófá Gaeilge liom (you would speak Irish with me)
Agus labhrófá Gaeilge liom (and you would speak Irish with me)
Agus tá mé ag iarraidh go labhrófá liom (and I want you to speak with me)
Agus tá mé ag iarraidh go labhrófá Gaeilge liom (and I want you to speak Irish with me)
Tá mé ag iarraidh go labhrófá Gaeilge liom anois (I want you to speak Irish with me now)

A bit weird to introduce liom now after we used “ba mhaith liom” so much, but better late than never. (Logically, this should have happened at the very beginning of yellow-white.)

[martin-harte]

Going to disagree with you here. Introducing an item after you have been using it as part of a meaningful chunk is good teaching IMHO.

[elizaveta]

I don’t think there was a deliberate idea. Looks more like an artifact of the generic plan applied to different languages without taking into consideration that Irish already uses “with me” as part of “I would like”. I can understand it could make sense to use idiom as a whole and then explain it’s literal meaning (like with gabh mo leithscéal), but this one is simple enough, could be explained as “good with me” right from the start.

[martin-harte]

Could be, I haven’t done the course. All I can say is that I enjoyed this kind of thing in the Manx course. For about 20 lessons, I thought the conjugated prepositions were verb endings until my mind finally figured it out. I love those, “Oh, so that’s what I’ve been saying!” moments.

Also, I don’t always find that what makes sense to me as a teacher who finds grammar interesting is the best order to introduce things to my students.
In this case, I can think of several reasons why the order in the course might be easier for students to learn than the more logical order.

You’re clearly a very smart person (like seriously, you are very impressive) and I share your interest in grammar (why else would I be reading your thread ha ha?) and I do take your point that it might be the application of a template; but honestly, I’m not convinced that the order on the course is a bad thing for the reasons I gave above.

[elizaveta]

I spent eleven years working in the kindergarten and explaining complicated stuff to five year olds, some with mental disabilities, so I have some idea how to slow down considerably I don’t exactly like it, but I can.

Anyway, I’ll have to figure out what’s going on in the rest of the course. Order might not be inherently bad, doesn’t mean it cannot be improved.

[martin-harte]

Fair enough.

[aran]

We generally intend not to use items until they’ve been introduced, but we also do feel that surprise theory suggests that it’s not the end of the world when we hiccup (and may have some benefits!).

[martin-harte]

Funnily enough, I’ve just been reading Andy Clark’s popular book on predictive processing and this whole area is fascinating. The applications to teaching are huge.

[elizaveta]

Interesting. Could you elaborate?

[martin-harte]

The Experience Machine: How Our Minds Predict and Shape Reality eBook : Clark,...

[elizaveta]

Okay, i get the hint. Are you familiar with Alva Noë’s works, by any chance?

[martin-harte]

I wasn’t, but I’ll certainly check him out, thanks.

What hint? I can promise you that I wasn’t hinting at anything. It was a good-faith answer to your question. What hint did you think I was making?

Edit: I’ve been trying to think what you might have meant by “hint” and the only thing I can think of is that you think it was a (rather rude) hint that you should buy the book. I can assure you that that wasn’t my intention. It was just an easy way to show you what book I was talking about with all the information (ISBN, synopsis, reviews) you might need to take it further.

[elizaveta]

Something went wrong somewhere. I was asking about applications to teaching, book reference is okay too. Predictive processing was on my list anyway, thanks for the reminder. Let’s discuss applications later?

[elizaveta]

Gee. Scottish version of the proverb about broken Gaelic:
Is fhèarr Gàidhlig bhriste na Gàidhlig sa chiste (better broken Gaelic than Gaelic in the coffin - fiercely debated too, naturally).
Wonder if Manx has its version.