Hi, its me ‘Puzzled’ again!!
Converting from the long version of the verb to the short version.
Dwi’n deud= I say / I am saying(present)
dedes =I said(past )
Bydda’ i’n deud (future) long version.
The stem of dweud = Ded, so hence we get dedais or dedes in the past tense.This when converted into every day speech corrupts to Ddudes.
So how in the name of all thats wonderful can the future become dduda’i ??? because that translates as ‘I will said’
which of course is nonsense.
Can anyone clear this up for me its doing my head in,Ive come all this way and still finding things thrown in my path to trip me up!!
Hi, its me ‘Puzzled’ again!!
I reckon you’re over-thinking this. Dduda’ i is the colloquial future tense of to say. Like many things, the answer is just “because” in my book. No doubt a grammatician will pop along to actually answer your question, but if I were you I would not worry about things like this and just use the words!
Pob lwc efo dy Gymraeg,
Hi Stu,your right of course, sometimes the only answer is "because it is said that way,like it or lump it’.
You have reminded me of a similar situation unrelated in another life,I was studying complex electronics at the time
and the instructors gave an explanation as to how a circuit worked.some explanations were just not acceptable and
different scenarios were presented by the students. The frustrated tutor was pushed into admitting that his was
the ‘established explanation’ so that everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet. He also admitted that the students version could be the correct one
BUT! if that version appears on the exam paper you have failed!!
So thanx for that Stu, I had completely forgotten that and I am amazed how memories lying dormant can be triggered suddenly into life.
I must look into that…here we go again!
over thinking it. Amazing how these memories suddenly trigger
ICould it be that “dweud” means “to say”? I think the “a” on the end is future tense, so that could make sense, as the “es I” on the end would put it into the past and the “a I” on the end would put it into the future. Just a thought …
I think Pauline is right. If you think back to (the dreaded) 6.1 and 6.2 of Course 1, you will remember learning “Bydda i. …” for “I will. …”. These short form endings are exactly the same. Just stick the endings on the stem of the verb.
In the North, ‘mi’ is often used at the start, which softens the start of the verb, so “Bydda i. …” would turn into “Mi fydda i. …”.
Then often people drop the “mi”, but keep the softening, so it is just said as “Fydda i. …”.
So apply that to dweud:
Mi ddweda i
Then let it run over your tongue quickly so it’s pronounced just like Aran says, depending on how natural and casual you want to be.
After you’ve followed the explanation, then forget it and just go with what Aran says without thinking about it!
Also, if you try the first challenge from the new Level 1, you get introduced to these short forms of the future/present tense right at the start!
I am on the same lesson as you, so struggling with the same issues, particularly since I have been learning south Wales Welsh in formal classes in Aberystwyth until this year. But it’s all good fun!
Hi thanx to Helen & Pauline, both brilliant answers,both correct but I have to go with Stu’s idea & just accept that things are said that way,so take it or leave it.Incidentally Helen I took welsh (southern ) in The open university and it was 99% grammar, 1 % spoken .So it has been an enormous challenge changing back from hwntw to gogledd.I will look for the challenge you mentioned,but have not seen it yet.
For the sake of clarity, wondering about grammar is absolutely fine. It was your last sentence that implied that your were getting stressed out by the question that concerned me, and prompted my “don’t worry about it, just use it” response!
I’ve only just seen this thread. Is it too late to add some further thoughts on the subject?
It seems to me that there is no point in expecting a totally standard form of Welsh tense - no more than you should expect spoken English verb usage to reflect grammatical purity (cf If I was to do that/If I were to do that).
The stem of the verb seems to be only part of the problem - dywed, dwed, dud can all be found in widely used reference texts (Modern Welsh Dictionary, Y Cyfeiriadur, Y Chwiliadur Iaith. The 9 different ways of finding the stem of so-called regular verbs (Y Cyfeiriadur p172) are another. Then there are the totally irregular verbs -bod, gwneud, mynd, cael, dod.
Having found the stem, however, there remains the ending to use with the stem.
The Modern Welsh Dictionary (p xvii) suggests (for regular verbs):
Past tense -es i; -est ti; -odd e/hi; -on ni; -och chi; -on nhw.
Future tense -a i; -I di; -ith e/hi; -wn ni; -wch chi; -an nhw.
Y Cyfeiriadur agrees except to substitute -“odd o” for the 3rd person singular past tense.
Y Chwiliadur Iaith seems to prefer, for the singular forms -ais i; aist ti; -odd e/o/hi.
For the irregular verbs, The Modern Welsh Dictionary replaces the entire verb -stem and ending, as follows:
Mynd es i; est ti, aeth e/hi; aethon ni; aethoch chi; aethon nhw;
Dod des i; dest ti; death e/hi; daethon ni; daethoch chi; daethon nhw;
Cael ces i; cest ti; cafodd e/hi; cawson ni; cawsoch chi; cawson nhw
Gwneud nes i; nes ti; naeth e/hi; naethon ni; naethoch chi; naethon nhw
Mynd a i; ei di; eith e/hi; awn ni; ewch chi; ân nhw
Dod do i; doi di; daw e/hi; down ni; dewch chi; dôn nhw
Cael ca i; cei di; ceith e/hi; cawn ni; cewch chi; can nhw
Gwneud na i; nei di; neith e/hi; nawn ni; newch chi; nân nhw
Y Chwiliadur Iaith agrees the irregular past tenses but offers no short form future tense.
Y Cyfeiriadur, however, suggests:
In the past tense.
Mynd - no change
Dod - prefix with a second “d” eg ddois i; ddoist ti etc
Cael - ges i; gest ti; gaeth o; gaethon ni; gaethoch chi; gaethon nhw
Gwneud prefix with a “w” eg wnes i; wnes ti etc
Mynd - no change
Dod - ddo i; ddoi di; ddoith o/hi; ddown ni; ddowch chi; ddôn nhw
Cael - ga i; gei di; geith o/hi; gawn ni; gewch chi; gân nhw
Gwneud prefix with a “w” eg wna i; wnei di
There are sometimes further changes when negative forms are used.
Tony Ellis, in Y Cyfeiriadur (p171) reminds us that our choice of long form or short or long form verb may also often affect word order and mutation.
Thus, in the long form the verb follows the subject and therefore the verb mutates. In the short form the object follows the subject , so the subject mutates.
eg Past tense Long form “Nes i brynu car” - prynu > brynu
eg Past tense Short form “Brynes i gar” - car > gar
eg Future tense Long form " Bydda i’n darllen llyfr" darllen > ddarllen
eg future tense Short form “darllena i lyfr” llyfr > lyfr
Finally, Ellis (p198) clarifies when the short form is often used instead of the Bod (long form).
He suggests that the short form usually indicates a positive/intentional action (I will go to Llandudno) whereas the Bod form is more likely to happen with less of a strong motive (I will be in Llandudno).
Writing this has helped me to understand better what underlies the use of short form in Course 3 - though perhaps I’d be better simply listening and get a life!
Wow! That’s a comprehensive overview!
I think the main thing is that because the original poster had first come across the short form of the verb, and thus the stem of the verb, being used in the past tense, he assumed that the stem of the verb somehow corresponded to talking about the past in itself.
As your post explains, with regular verbs like (let’s say) “dweud”, with stem (lets say) “ddud~”, you simply use the stem + a future ending or a past ending. It can be either. The stem itself is not past, present or future- it depends on the ending given to it.
In the same way that “dweud” or any other verb is not in itself past, present or future - it depends whether you say “dw i’n dweud”, “o’n i’n dweud”, “dw i wedi dweud”, “nes i ddweud”, etcetera.
And with dweud, there are many, many forms of the whole word for the verb, and many forms of the stem - more than normal!
Don’t know if that helps!
Yes. For what it’s worth, at my still early stage of learning, I agree. I try to get behind what I hear on the course because I probably read more Welsh than I speak or hear. My main opportunities to speak Welsh seem to be at shop tills or in cafes, ordering meals, or requesting use of a computer terminal in the Library. Other than that I try to read posters in shop windows, read Welsh language pages of newspapers such as the Caernarfon & Denbigh Herald or Cambrian News. Recognising that there are so many variants of how to say something can be a real challenge.