Choosing Northern or Southern Welsh!

@hectorgrey
Thanks for the tip!
It’s kind of what you said, many Catalans do not like to be called Spanish as they’re not identified with Spain but with Catalonia, which we believe is a nation apart. :wink:

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@seren
Looks like I’ll have to end up choosing which one I like more, either Southern or Northern :see_no_evil:

@louis
That’s good to know, really :wink:

@philipnewton
hahaha I’m not really worried about the pronunciation but I’ll keep it in mind, diolch!

@seren

Wow, no! I’ll have to check it out! Diolch :slight_smile:

@mikeellwood

Diolch! It’s my pleasure to be learning Cymraeg :wink:

Wow, those are topics that can give a lot to discuss about! :yum:
I believe that Catalan is not, at the present moment, endangered at all as whole, though I must admit that in some places the language is “starting” to disappear. For us, Catalans (in Catalonia), our language is what identifies us, it’s the most important part of our (hipothetical) nation. That is possibly why (with other reasons) we have been able to preserve our language so well despite the difficult situations it has suffered. In Catalonia Catalan is very much alive wherever you go, not just at the small villages. Even in Barcelona, where many people are not from Catalan origin, you can hear the language at the streets (though sometimes you might hear more English, German or Japanese ;)). Everybody learns Catalan at school, it’s the main language of eduaction, the thing is if these children will ever speak it (many people learn it because they’re forced to but in real life they will never speak it). Take, for example, my school, situated at a neighborhood where many people are traditionally from other parts of Spain or South America. We all know Catalan but many of my classmates never use it (except sometimes with the teachers or with me XD).
It all depends on the place you’re at, in smaller cities and townz Catalan is very much more dominant, so I think we must be very greatful.
The other places where Catalan is spoken are a whole other thing. I’ll write about them some other time :wink:

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Thanks for the insights Pau. When you have time, perhaps you could talk about whether you think the language is being affected by Spanish, in the same way that Welsh (or Welsh speakers) continually borrow(s) words form English, but more importantly, there seems a tendency, at least in some areas, for the Welsh to seem more like a literal translation of English, rather than expressing it as it would have traditionally been done. i.e. not just the vocabulary, but the structure of the language changing.

I know a bit about Spanish, but not knowing anything about Catalan, I don’t know if it’s likely that such “interference” could easily occur or not.

@mikeellwood
Sure! I will, but just so you get an idea of it I’ll give you the short answer: yes. Spanish has always influenced Catalan, of course, but in the last few years I think the process has been speeding up a little. My thoughts about all of this are quite interesting, I believe. Specially about what we call “la normalització lingüística”, which I’d say you could guess the meaning: the linguistic standardization of the language. I’ll go more into detail whenever I can :wink:
Nos da!

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@Toffidil
You’ve helped me with my travel plans, too. I’m coming to Cymru this July. Been combing my guidebook and maps, but your recommendations have given me food for thought. I’m learning Northern Welsh, but I have no fear of the Southern variety :smile:

@Paubofill
Welcome to SSiW! Very interesting about the Catalan language. Here in France we just assume Catalan is very much alive and well. Aside from Basque, I think many of the French “patois” are dying. My mother-in-law’s first language is “limousin”. She learned standard French in school, and got the “Welsh Not” treatment (she’s 85) to stop her from speaking her native language. But she still speaks it with the few in the family that can understand.

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If most of you refuse to speak spanish even when theres one in your presence, you should not be called spaniard. I believe that if you are from Spain you have to speak the language and dont refuse its history, just my point of view

As well as Welsh, I also maintain / study German, and go to a conversation group led by a semi-retired native speaking tutor. She rather surprised me yesterday saying that she had grown up speaking Plattdeutsch, and still spoke that with her brother and sister when they met. I assume she would have learned Hochdeutsch at school, and would have had to speak it at University. I’d guess she is in her mid-seventies. I believe that Plattdeutsch is also slowly dying.

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That sort of attitude only works well in nation-states, i.e. where one state or country is inhabited by only one nation speaking one language.

Imagine how that would work out in, say, Belgium or Switzerland, where there isn’t even a “Belgian” or “Swiss” language, and one can see that citizenship (of a nation) need not be tied to a language

I wonder whether there are still a handful of monolingual Irish speakers left - if other Irish “refused to speak Irish even when there’s one [of those monolingual Irish speakers] in their presence”, are they then not really Irish?

Many countries historically have multiple languages spoken in them - and some of those countries have one unifying language used (or imposed by) the government but others use multiple official languages.

I also had to think of two young ladies I met at the Polyglot Gathering last year. They were from the Åland islands and held Finnish passports. One of them said she did not speak Finnish. If she spoke her native Swedish even when there were Finnish-speakers around, would that make her “not a real Finn”? Even if the language of administration of the Åland islands is Swedish and it is the mother tongue of nearly everyone on the islands?

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I live in northern Germany, where the traditional language is/was Plattdeutsch, and that is my impression, too.

Every now and then I hear about a young person growing up with Plattdeutsch, but by and large, it seems to be spoken natively only by people over the age of 50 or so, who will sometimes speak it with each other but don’t usually, I think, pass it on to their children.

Things may well be different in more rural areas - I live in a big city - but in general, I think that Plattdeutsch is at least receding.

However, I think that many up here in the north have at least a certain amount of passive understanding of Plattdeutsch due to exposure to sayings or songs (and the words that have entered the local vernacular from Plattdeutsch) - and the two languages are related, after all, so if a speaker uses fewer specifically Plattdeutsch words, you can figure out the rest by applying the corresponding sound shifts in your mind.

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I don’t know if you’re intending this to sound aggressive, but that’s how it sounds to me.

You didn’t answer my earlier comment, so I don’t know if you read it - but let me make the point that SSiW is a friendly and welcoming community in which we do not tell other people what they should or shouldn’t speak, what identity they should or shouldn’t feel, or how we believe they ‘ought’ to be.

We have on a couple of occasions in the past had to ban people who weren’t willing to fit in with this friendly approach - I hope that’s not going to be necessary on this occasion - but I would like you to consider this a friendly warning. :sunny:

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@Pwyll

Thanks! You are right, of course, Catalan is currently very present in society in Southern Catalonia, sadly not as much as in Northern Catalonia.
Basque… it really fascinates me! Yeah, I think it’s still quite alive in France compared to other regional languages.

Wow! I’ve been studying Occitan for more than a year now :slight_smile: Not the Lemosin dialect, though. I’m learning Lengadocian, which is quite similar to Catalan.

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I went there last week for my lunch. It’s nice and a really good place to stop as the food is good, reasonably priced and a good chance of hearing and to practice your Welsh. The lad who served me was obviously from the north originally (from his accent), anyway I used my Welsh for a practical purpose for the first time! I think that unless you you go to one of the Welsh speaking communities, you will always find a mixture of both North and South. Also at the till they do the whole , ‘here is your change, one pound and eighty two pence’ which you perhaps wouldn’t get anywhere else
I have just finished the Northern course, I have just switched my android to Southern! To me, the only issue is that native speakers will talk too fast anyway for you to pick up everything, so whether they use Northern or Southern short forms / colloquialisms you will have the same issue.
I was worried about this whole ‘North/South’ at the beginning, now I know it really doesn’t matter.

There are towns in Wales that are pretty/ quaint, which attract tourists. I know many English people, who have a somewhat warped view of Wales, having only visited such touristy places. However the non-touristy parts are mainly not that grim. I got lost driving out of Cardiff last week (I am not using my 'phones 'SatNav ever again) and discovered the Llanedeyrn estate, which seemed to be the grimmest architecture I have ever seen, not a place to spend a your holiday! However most towns that may look a bit grim, are often very friendly and still have nice hills nearby. A lot of the heads of the valleys towns are really nice, as you have the Brecon beacons next door!

I lived in Aberystwyth for six years. I would often hear people speak Welsh in the street, sadly mainly older people. What surprised me was I knew a lot of people, who I have since learnt that they were Welsh speakers, i never knew when I was there, it’s that people don’t like to use Welsh in mixed company, so there are probably more Welsh speakers in Aberystwyth than you may think. I think you can still be assured of hearing Welsh in the ‘Yr Hen Lew Du’ pub on Bridge street.

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I think that’s very common in Cardiff - you hear all sorts of different accents around here (presumably because people are drawn to the city by the job opportunities for Welsh-speakers).

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Are you doing the accelerated listening exercises? They’ll help a lot with this :sunny:

Yes, The ones where you and Catrin turn into Chipmunks. I should start listening to these everyday. I do pick up a little more each time.

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Yes, that’s what we (strongly!) recommend… :sunny:

Generally speaking, it seems to take about a fortnight of listening to them every day to see noticeable change, and reap the benefits when talking to other people…

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