Your experiences - speaking confidently - problems, victories

@Simon Owen-Williams: Thanks for that posting. As well as symleiddio, I picked up quite a few other new words and you reminded me of the lovely sounding sylweddoli, which I heard recently on Radio Cymru, but then could not remember well enough to look up. ::smile:

As for there not being much Welsh used on the forum, don’t forget that SSiW beginners are specifically discouraged from reading and writing Welsh. That doesn’t apply to advanced learners and experienced speakers of course, but perhaps the reluctance to use Welsh here continues sometimes longer than it need to.

Perhaps in future, there could be a way of marking threads specifically Welsh only, or Welsh-usage encouraged, with suitable guidance for beginners to avoid them, at least up to a certain point in their learning.

And / or perhaps some brave souls could post links to videos or sound files of themselves speaking. :smile: (Some people have already, like Rambling John’s excellent “what’s outside” series on the old forum). Not sure if embedding works yet, but links do, so there’s nothing stopping anyone really. :smile:

As for there not being much Welsh used on the forum, don’t forget that SSiW beginners are specifically discouraged from reading and writing Welsh. That doesn’t apply to advanced learners and experienced speakers of course, but perhaps the reluctance to use Welsh here continues sometimes longer than it need to.

I have seen it said elsewhere that we have an informal rule to not write Welsh on the forum without a translation both because early SSiW discourages reading/writing Welsh, and because the forum should be inclusive. Which makes sense to me.

Edit: Saying that, I can also see the merit of a Welsh-speaking label/tag, once those are available.

More thoughts… Certainly understand the inclusion bit, to a point. My guess is that most learners on SSiw are supplementing what they do with some written work… Certainly those who learn better in the visual learning realm would want to see what the language looks like. Btw safle gwych i ddilyn rhywun sydd yn gwneud hynny yn barod yw.-----(great site to follow is the blog) Cariad gwin a chalpol ( mutated baby medicine calpol I think) for anyone interested…

My thought was only to encourage people to use welsh in whatever form possible. It goes back to taking chances in another way is all. Perhaps we should start another site writesomethinginwelsh? ( joc Bach— little joke)!
Diolch am yr ymatebion… (Cheers for taking time to respond)

Here is the blog site:

Superb way of seeing how different the northern dialect is from the south in everyday life and how vital it is to try to understand both of them ( os ti mwyn wrth cwrs!-- if you want to that is) to go with the whole one language thing.

Totally pwnc gwahanol (change of topic)… Why don’t they post more s4c programs yn fyd eang (globally) on their site? Pres? (Arian) galw ac chyflenwad ( demand and supply) ?
Yn arbenning o rhywstredig! [that’s a bleeding mouthful!]-( frustrating )for those of us living abroad. Just a question…

@Simon Owen-Williams My guess is that most learners on SSiw are supplementing what they do with some written work…

No: I think a lot of us - especially those of us for whom SSiW was our first serious attempt to learn Welsh took the instructions / guidelines fairly literally and did not read or write Welsh, for example not making any notes on the lessons (which I would automatically have done using a traditional course).

In my case, I didn’t even read the course guide notes for Course 1 until after I’d finished the whole course, and I still haven’t read all of it (but that’s because I don’t need to now). I didn’t make any serious attempt to read Welsh at all during Course 1, although inevitably it did crop up on the old forum, especially in the sections pertaining to specific lessons.

I do read more now, and do write down words and phrases I want to remember (not from the courses, but from elsewhere), although I’ve not had any experience with extensive writing.

I believe some SSiWers have been nagging Aran for years about producing a writing course, and I’m sure it’s on his ToDo list, but possibly not very near the top at the moment. :smile:

(I think it’s true that some more advanced SSiW learners in Wales supplement it with e.g. dosbarthiadae nos which I guess will tend to include written work.)

I’m in line with what Mike has written, the next step is a bit of a contradiction in that i have been reading on subjects i find interesting to learn new words, that does not mean i want to spend a lot of time reading and writing, it’s just a way to be clear about word meaning and spelling (roughly) so i am clear about what i am trying to use, then i need not read it again. if a new phrase contains a mutation then hopefully i will remember it that way though it’s hot high on my worry list.

anyway the thread title included experiences of speaking with people, as it happens i was in north Wales for a few days last week and can’t stop myself using lines i’m confident with, on the first bus i boarded it didn’t take a woman two minutes before saying you have been trying to learn Welsh and we were away, me explaining where i was going and why, she knew three words for butterfly in welsh (one more than me) and i knew moth, a great 10 minutes it was before her stop, another woman in the week actually asked if i would like to practice my welsh with her, these are the moments to savor and remember, when i get a negative reaction i just forget it and move on as i will learn nothing from them.

The real problem for me is not being able to have such moments on at least a weekly basis with a first language speaker, (i’m sure it’s the biggest problem for many on here).

There is always next time, and in the mean time i thank those who put up with my twittering on G+, and will try to keep adding a few more words.

Yes: Guys, I am all about spoken welsh.

The Pimsleur approach definately has legs from a learner point of view:

The extent to which SSiw has been inspired by this method is not what I am driving at… It works…

If I could walk into a restaurant, or board a bus ,or go to a school in wales for that matter and only hear welsh spoken then that would be a dream for me. I am a huge fan of the Pimsleur method.

However, at some point in your learning as a literate person you start asking the question( or at least I did)what does the language actually look like? This can help you to decipher context and actually help to strengthen your speech.

Perhaps we disagree about when this should happen. For some visual learners this is actually hanfodol( really important) early on. ( check out ssis course er enghraift)Y dweud y gwir (actually) this is the case for many people.

For some visual learners this is actually hanfodol( really important) early on.

Do you have any research evidence for that? All visual learners acquire their first language pre-literacy. In our experience to date, all visual learners who commit to this approach find that they are entirely capable of learning this way, and that in most cases it’s faster and easier than previous attempts - so although I think an awareness of learning styles is important in education in general terms, I’m increasingly sceptical that it’s relevant to language acquisition…:smile:

Incidentally, hanfodol is more like ‘essential’ than ‘really important’.

We will have (once tagging is in place) areas for people to use their Welsh - they should become particularly lively once we have the course available through the medium of other languages - but we want to keep them distinct from the main flow of support, because early stage learners can be very reluctant to ask for support if they feel they ‘ought’ to be using Welsh.

I have always thought of myself as a traditional chalk and talk learner, and not very good at picking things up as I went along. I went to a management meeting once about learning styles and that confirmed that approach - participative courses were a waste of time for me - I wouldn’t learn anything. All this rang true for me. Reading and making notes was much more my style. Languages were my worst subject at school, although I have ‘O’ levels in both Spanish and French. I have never really used either and can only remember my verb tables and not one single whole sentence.

When I first came across SSiW, I thought, ‘if I don’t write anything down, I’ll never remember it’. How wrong I was. After the first six lessons, I had the confidence to go on the intensive beginners course at Aberystwyth for two weeks. Then I continued with formal courses and SSiW. But the things that I remember and say naturally all come from SSiW. I can take the vocab that I have learned on courses or memrise and put it into the structures I have learned from SSiW.

This year I went to Nant Gwrtheryn and did the Popeth Cymraeg course with Ioan Talfryn - completely different to college courses - no writing, no homework, no pressure - just total fun, and by the end of the course I could understand so much Welsh, without trying! Then a week later, I went to bootcamp and when I survived tthat I ‘knew’ I could get by in Welsh!

Since then, I have returned to the formal courses and done two one week summer schools. Unfortunately, I have also returned to over thinking my sentences before saying anything and I am really struggling on the confidence and motivation front.

Now I know things could be so much better, after Popeth Cymraeg and bootcamp, and I feel the formal courses are holding me back. I’m not quite sure how to go forward from here, except sticking with SSiW and finding other ways of learning Welsh that do not involve any stress and that I enjoy!

If you’ve survived Bootcamp, and formal courses are hitting your confidence, I strongly suspect that what you need to be doing now is just developing social opportunities in Welsh (and quite possibly dropping the courses entirely - everyone has to leave the classroom at some point! :smile: ). Have you got a conversation partner? That’s a good first step - and then just trying to find ways to move stuff you already do sideways into a Welsh-speaking context.

In other words, you’ve learnt the language - you speak Welsh - the fine-tuning from here on in will be at its most enjoyable when it’s at its most social…:smile:

For me, need has been the key.

If there’s no need to speak the language at that moment then lots of little doubts and bagfuls of laziness creep in and I lose a lot of my speed and skill.

However, if I have to use it, either because it’s Bootcamp and its the law, or I’m talking to a Spanish speaker with little knowledge of English then I start pulling out words I didn’t know I knew.

In fact, using the pause button on lessons has the same effect, it removes the need and knocks my ability down a few notches.

Bootcamp was definitely the turning point for me. Having to speak Welsh for a whole week meant that I used the phrases and vocab I knew, and learnt new things as well. I was making loads of mistakes - especially around tenses - but gradually I began to think in Welsh - even if it was mostly in the present tense! But what astounded me most was that after a couple of days I could understand so much more of what other people were saying. Finding people to talk to is key to maintaining and improving your speaking. I’d be happy to be a conversation partner, Helen Lindsay - on the phone or on Skype.

“entirely capable of learning this way, and that in most cases it’s faster and easier than previous attempts” (Aran)

Being somewhat of a visual learner myself I nonetheless agree with you here, Aran. Although I must admit that I had been trying to learn Welsh from books for decades ( not continually, though). So in most cases I do know how the words are spelt, which helps me to remember them. (so that’s a bit of cheating on my part, I’m afraid.)The words I haven’t seen in writing before I do find those more difficult.
But the SSiW method definitely helps and encourages me to go and actually use what I’ve learnt so far more confidently: I went to two of the Hwlffordd meet-ups last summer (Diolch yn fawr, Matthew!) and managed to speak and understand more than I would have thought. What an experience!
I also find I’m talking to myself in Welsh, occasionally at least, with the well-known phrases from the course popping up ready for use. I think that is one of the great advantages of the SSiW courses: you learn certain language chunks which you will need in real life conversations and by repeating them in different contexts and lessons they seem to become “natural” , i.e. you just don’t have to think about how to “construct” them. It is like riding a bike or driving a car or brushing your teeth. Very often I hear myself saying the Welsh sentences more or less automatically.
I am determined to go and try the Welsh I’ve learnt so far while on holiday in Wales next week, yet again.
In a way the patterns ar drill patterns, aren’t they? When I started to learn English in year five (ages ago), the very first sentences were “This is a boy. Is it a boy? Yes, it is a boy.” “This is a cat. Is it a cat? Yes, it is a cat.” And so on, page after page. This “drilling” method had been or still is despised by many methodologists. In my opinion and experience, though, it does have many advantages. Diolch yn fawr for all the energy and ideas you put into these courses!

When it comes to learning (as opposed to passing tests or assignments) if it works, it’s not cheating. That said, I’d say that while there’s some element of drill early on, a large part of it is working out for yourself how to say specific sentences after learning a pattern and a couple of words.

Hi pawb. I’m also looking for a speech pal. I’m on course 2 lessons 18-21and a bit stuck. Can’t get my tongue (or brain) around the bod and ownership words. Dy garu dy is all that has stuck! Would love some siarad ymarfer, os gwelwch yn dda (speaking practice, please) Chele

Necessity is the biggest holdback for me. I live in Edmonton, Canada. No one else in my family had even a passing interest in the language (and my father, born and raised in Pontardawe, had actually been forbidden by his parents to learn Welsh). Over here, you are much more likely to hear Ukrainian and French being spoken.

Tywydd S4C is quite instructional, and I try and listen to BBC Radio Cymru online, but with no other Welsh being spoken, it’s nearly impossible to pick up the gist of what’s being said. Even then, I suspect there’s a lot of local cultural knowledge exhibited in the shows, and with no local context to go by, it adds yet another layer of complexity.

I’ve soldiered on, and am happy to report that I can often do quite well understanding the weather. But as for becoming a true speaker, nearly impossible given the cultural and physical distance that separates us.

In my opinion, the one most important (and most difficult) thing to get my head round is what Stu said quite well at the beginning of this thread:

my speaking confidence stepped up a level when I stopped trying to say things in Welsh the way I would in English (that is, as if I was translating from the English), and started using the Welsh that I knew to get the same ideas across. This may mean that I use simpler language when I’m speaking Welsh than I would do when using English

I for one find it almost irresistibly tempting to use “fancy” language and play with words, or try and find direct equivalents of what I’m trying to say in English, when a much simpler phrase would do the job just as well.

This was proved to me again this week in an interesting way. We’re on holiday in Germany at the moment, staying with the in laws. I wasn’t particularly looking forward to speaking German with everyone, as I haven’t thought about German for ages, having been all preoccupied with Welsh. I was very pleasantly surprised on first evening that I seemed to be able to express myself better than I normally feel I do here, althoughI should have been completely out of practice. I had the strong impression that this was a direct result of being in the habit of trying to use the above strategy in Welsh. I could almost feel my brain processing it more effectively.

The other important thing, of course, is to throw your pride to the wind and jump in. I found it really really hard to open my mouth the first few times (still do, mostly!) but each time you do it, it gets more normal. I think that’s where Bootcamp sounds like a real game changer - otherwise, it can be very hard to create situations where you have to speak Welsh. In a way, Welsh learners are in an almost uniquely disadvantaged situation, as all native speakers know they speak English better than we speak Welsh, so the situation is always somewhat contrived and unnatural - the other challenge is to develop a thick skin to this aspect of it.

Aran said: If you’ve survived Bootcamp, and formal courses are hitting your confidence, I strongly suspect that what you need to be doing now is just developing social opportunities in Welsh (and quite possibly dropping the courses entirely - everyone has to leave the classroom at some point!).

Thanks Aran, I think I needed ‘permission’ to stop going to formal courses, even though I haven’t been enjoying them! I was thinking that I should go, to force me to do some Welsh on a regular basis, but it seems a bit pointless if I end up feeling disillusioned. I might continue with the local Cwrs Sgwrsio while I enjoy it.

Meanwhile, I have planned a list of things I am going to do to practise Welsh: press on more quickly with SSiW (I’m on lesson 23, course 2), write my shopping lists and diary in Welsh, reading - I loved reading as a child to the exclusion of everything else, translating my text conversations into Welsh (afterall they use the vocabulary that I use every day), listening to Radio Cymru and watching S4C ( I can get the gist of things if I know the general topic) and I will only go into Welsh speaking cafes so I can order in Welsh - or maybe I’ll order in Welsh anyway! There, I’ve said it now, so I’ll have to do it!

Recent news that has cheered me up, as well as leaving me terrified:
After the Bootcamp, I found a FfrinDiaith to meet up with once a week (really, really good), but he has been very busy in recent weeks, so we hadn’t had much contact. Last week, I received an email from him, saying he’d passed my name on to the Owain Glyndwr centre in Machynlleth because they are looking for volunteers who can speak Welsh. This was immediately followed by an email from the centre asking me whether I would be interested in the opportunity to speak Welsh with their customers! They are looking for people who are ‘ddwyieithog’, which I definitely am not, but I will see whether they are interested in a hesitant learner!

@Netmouse: Welsh learners are in an almost uniquely disadvantaged situation, as all native speakers know they speak English better than we speak Welsh, so the situation is always somewhat contrived and unnatural - the other challenge is to develop a thick skin to this aspect of it.

You’ve hit the nail on the head here I think. You go to France, and if you know some French, then of course you use it with the locals to the best of your ability, and no one will question you. Go to Germany, and no one will question that you are doing your best to speak German.

But when we (those of us who don’t live there) go to Wales, we are thinking … hmm… now, is this a Welsh speaking area? Does this seem like a Welsh-speaking café, pub, garage…? Will they think I’m silly if I’m a native English speaker, and it turns out they are monoglot English speakers, and I’m trying to speak a language I only partly understand to a person who doesn’t understand it at all, and we can both speak English perfectly? That situation usually doesn’t happen in other countries, or at least not the ones I’m likely to go to.

(Admittedly Germans will often want to practice their English on you, but that’s a different problem really.)

I hope I will develop a thick skin one day, and also just getting more competent, and therefore feeling more confident in the language, should hopefully help.

@Charlotte Falb: you learn certain language chunks which you will need in real life conversations and by repeating them in different contexts and lessons they seem to become “natural” , i.e. you just don’t have to think about how to “construct” them. It is like riding a bike or driving a car or brushing your teeth. Very often I hear myself saying the Welsh sentences more or less automatically.

And this also works for listening comprehension as well. More and more, I’ll hear the beginning of a phrase on “Rownd a Rownd” or “Pobol y Cym” (and occasionally Radio Cymru), and from the situation, I know exactly what’s coming next and don’t really have to think about it. This gives you valuable thinking time to help you process earlier words you might not have fully understood, or to prepare for what’s coming next.

In computing terms, it’s not exactly parallel processing: it’s more like “lookahead” or “lookbehind”. :slight_smile: