A teacher I had several years ago said that the whole Treiglad Llais was dying out, to his sorrow.
Place names mutate after other causes.
Dw i’n byw yng Nghefneithin. I live in Cefneithin.
If I was working for Radio Cymru, I suspect their rule book, style book, would include TL after a/â. It gets more complicated with foreign place names.
Why does everyone think I don’t like the treiglad llaes?? I love the treiglad llaes, and you’ll see it all over the place in my books. Duwcs, I even say “te a choffi” myself! And “cael a chael”. And “Lloegr a Chymru”. Yup… I would say all these, and I would expect a high proportion of Welsh speakers to do the same.
By the same token however, I would not say “jin a thonic”, or “bws a thacsi”, except as a joke, and I’ve heard plenty of Welsh speakers do these as jokes, believe me.
C to CH is consistently applied in various circumstances; P to PH and T to TH are heard much less frequently, and often sound stilted (see thonic above) - you do get them on the front of verbs-with endings, but very inconsistently…many speakers use SM in these circumstances, as someone else here has pointed out correctly elsewhere.
Look what the Modern Welsh Dictionary (p. xiii) says about this:
“…only the change C to CH is applied with any consistency in the modern spoken language, though all three are the norm in writing.”
I agree with every word of that statement. 8)
They do it consistently for C > CH, very very erratically for P > PH and T > TH. Mam a thad and sounds fine for this reason - whereas bws a thacsi sounds (frankly) daft, or even worse pretentious. Another nice set phrase, this one with P > PH, is a phellyand suchlike, which is a contraction of a phethau fellyand such things.
Now, similarly with placenames - C > CH, normal, other two not: a Chaerdyddand Cardiff sounds normal and correct, while a Thalybontand Talybont sounds faintly precious to ordinary people I think.
I think T > TH is the least natural of the three overall.
Got into dreadful trouble with the language police for saying all this years ago in the grammar, but it is the truth, and anyway I don’t care.
Personal names are generally immune to mutation, by the way.
Diolch yn fawr iawn Gareth and for all the other replies. I never realised I was touching on something that has a little bit of controversy attached to it - nice tobe controversial sometimes.
While we are on the whole mutation topic - do you mutate the names of your countries if you live outside Prydain? (Belarus, for example:)
I know that grammatically you should, but I’ve heard people drop the mutation sometimes, and I was interested in how comfortable people feel with that.
That is correct. I’ve heard native speakers say dw i’n mynd i FirminghamI’m going to Birmingham, for example…although I do urge people here NOT to employ the same principle if they’re going to Buckingham Palace.
With non-Welsh placenames beginning with C, practically anything goes:
Mae hi’n byw yn Camden Mae hin’n byw yng Nghamden Mae hi’n byw yn Gamden
and
Mae hi’n dod o Camden Mae hi’n dod o Gamden
all fine really.
Plenty of native speakers even use SM with placenames after ynin :
Mae hi’n byw yn Fangor Mae hi’n byw yn Dregaron
This is just retreat of NM as SM is generalised. You’d lose marks for it in a written exam, though…
Just a quick question on “banc”, particularly the title of the song Danybanc, featured in the Welsh Music thread. In Wales, can banc mean an incline (as well as a river bank)? I ask this because I am used to “Bank Foot” meaning the bottom of a hill, but I think that in England, this only applies in certain regions. Is it wishful thinking on my part for Danybanc to fit this meaning rather than the “below the river bank”, which would be strange?