Thanks to @Hendrik’s link, several of my questions about Llyfr Glas Nebo have been answered (though there are a few differences/additions between the Welsh text and the translation). So here come the things I still don’t quite get.
“Ar ôl hynny, dyma fi’n cadw’r llyfr ar y silff uchaf”
What is the function of “dyma” here? It does seem to work like “nes i”. Is that a Northern thing?
1 Like
“After that, here I am keeping the book on the highest shelf”
2 Likes
Noobish question about verb order.
I understand that Cymraeg is normally VSO, but can be SVO too.
I just don’t really have a handle yet on which to use in normal speech.
For example:
“Welsh is the old language of Britain”
Google translate throws back SVO “Cymraeg yw’r hen iaith Prydain”
Am I correct in thinking this is more formal Welsh. Is it even right?
I was guessing at at “Mae Cymraeg yr hen iaith Prydain” but I can’t tell if that is right either.
Thanks.
1 Like
Hi Owen,
In your example your identifying something - so it uses the SVO, x yw y
Works when talking about occupations:
Ffisio ydy Anthony
This is also emphasis. So here in your example you’re emphasising Cymraeg as the old language, not Mexican.
It’s not more formal. It’s used in informal speech too.
It also works when you’re introducing yourself - Anthony 'dw i
Does that help?
Also, just reread and properly read your bit about mae, it doesn’t really work here because it’s an identification sentence.
Mae…yn + verb - is two verbs. Whereas in your sentence you only have one - yw.
1 Like
Um, as a stattement, non-emphatic, wouldn’t Mae Cymraeg yr hen iaith Prydain actually work? There is only one verb - mae - and the rest of the sentence is “subject” (Cymraeg) and object (yr hen iaith Prydain). It is neither as direct nor as elegant as Cymraeg yw’r hen iaith Prydain but it most certainly would be understood, wouldn’t it?
Mae would need yn here. “Mae’r Gymraeg yn hen iaith Prydain” grammatically works but it’s a bit clunky
Edit: in speech i would use the emphatic in this example.
Just like I could say “Dwi’n Anthony” but I introduce myself as “Anthony dw i”
1 Like
It’s not more formal and yes, it is correct. There are two exceptions to the VSO rule where it becomes SVO. One is in focused (emphasised) sentences, but the example you have given is the second exception which is an identification sentence. In this type of sentence, the statement can answer a question where both bits either side of the “to be” (here, ‘is’) refer to the same thing, so for instance, if you imagine it as the answer to “what is the old language of Britain?”, the answer gives you the SVO structure because “Welsh” and “old language of Britain” refer to the same thing.
Gareth King explains it better (as you’d imagine he would 
) in his Modern Welsh, section 220 (p142)
4 Likes
Oh, of course. Rusty me. Thanks!
2 Likes
This is all really useful and makes sense. Diolch yn fawr everyone.
3 Likes
“Welsh is the old language of Britain”
I think this would be “ydy’r” rather than “yn” (“the” rather than “an”) so “Mae Cymraeg ydy’r hen iaith Prydain”. I may be well off here.
1 Like
That’s what my mouth wants to say but it repeats “bod” (mae + ydy). Which is why I wouldn’t use the mae construction. It’s too emphatic a sentence to use mae
…mai Cymraeg ydy’r hen iaith Prydain - on the other hand does work.
But I’d stick to (being a Cardiff Gog) Cymraeg ydy’r hen iaith Prydain
2 Likes
Having tried to get my head around the concept of ‘identifying’ sentences a bit: would be a rule of thumb to say that if the object has ‘the’ in front of it, it’s an identifying sentence, so you go SVO?
eg
Gordon is a blue engine
Mae Gordon yn trên glas.
But if someone says “which engine is the big engine?”
Gordon is the big engine
Gordon yw’r trên fawr.
2 Likes
yup, as rule-of-thumbs go, that seems a pretty good one to me (but that’s not to say there won’t be an exception lurking around ready to jump out as soon as we think we’ve nailed it! )
1 Like
You could be on to something there owd lad, that’s,why I tend to keep schtum. 
1 Like
Does “gad” as in “gad i ni weld” come from gadael? Diolch
yes, gadael can also mean “to allow” as well as “to leave”, and the “to allow” meaning can also equate to “to let” in English, so that’s how we get “gad i ni weld” = “let’s see”
If you spend time in Merthyr you’ll hear “leave” used this way in English too.
“Leave me know”
2 Likes
But means something different: Welsh is an old language of Britain.
Once you single out with the, you’ve made it an identification sentence (as of course you rightly explain to Owen, Anthony), and that rules out VSO order, and therefore mae with it.
Y Gymraeg ydy hen iaith Prydain.
3 Likes